Unions

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:45:23 -0800 (PST), rigger

What happens to the "scabs" who cross your picket lines?

One day, I'd like someone to explain to me how we are to pay our way as a country if all we do is serve pizzas to each other and patch one another up when all that fine dining ends up in heart attacks and strokes....

I suppose you could phrase it that way from your point of view- but the fact is, and remains, that I work at least twice as hard as most of those around me to ensure my place in the world. As far as I'm concerned, having union shops drive up the pay in the area would just be inadequate compensation for all of the money I've had taken from my paychecks in the form of taxes over the years to support slackards. In reality, I was trying to cede you part of the point in the interest of civility, but after reading more of this thread, I don't think that's either wise or necessary.

If I ever become a "blood-sucking leech," I shall kill myself- not demand that others give my thier blood and smile. But since there are few union shops around here, it's really a moot point in any case.

Indeed. But, on a larger scale, it does allow the area to compete with overseas labor, and the housing costs, etc, are lower as well. Where it really hurts is when a guy like me is building production capacity on the side, and machine tooling is being sold at the same prices as it is in wealthier areas.

I'm not sure in what way I am misunderstanding communism. The sense in which I mean it is the situation where a mass of workers unite to elevate a leader or ruling class who then begins to dictate the terms of society. In the abstract, this is supposed to lead to an eventual state of anarchy in which all people work for the benefit of society, but in reality, it tends to lead to a small group retaining power though intimidation and a network of informers.

Eventually, most communist societies fail because there is little incentive to demonstrate skill or innovation, and the best way to "get ahead" is to become a more effective victim to gain more of the meager benefits the state has to offer.

How can you post this while shilling for union labor?

To be more accurate, eight hours pay for eight hours on the clock - not necessarily eight hours worked. That's how unions REALLY work. Such as "fire tenders" on diesel locomotives.

So, your union has NEVER jeopardized the profitability and/or viability of a business by going out on strike and shutting down the operation in hopes of bringing management down to their knees?

That IS, after all, the union's "strength".....the ability to shut a place down.

If your union has EVER gone on strike, your statement above is pure political B.S. and more lies and propaganda.

Whose money is it? It's yours dcaster, and mine, and everyones. That is "if" you subscribe to Henry Ford's crazy idea that "your" money is actually only being "handled" by someone else for a while (Sorry Henry if I botched this up too bad). I personally think this makes a lot of sense. As far as Boing is concerned; This appears to be an example of a contract negotiated/written to everyones desires.

You say po-tae-toes and I say po-tah-toes. Big deal. I don't teach you how to speak my way and visa-versa. OK?

You've got that right. Me too. Gee, if we negotiate, now we're a union of two ;) ; how did that happen?

dennis in nca

Let me take an paragraph from my post to Harold:

"Do you have a brother or sister? If you do would you fire your brother or sister (or child) because someone could do the job better?? (I'd like to hear about the ass-kicking from your wife when you did so. LOL) Or maybe you'd fire your Dad or Mom??? LOL"

Try thinking along these lines and you may better under- stand the union mentality and what makes unions strong.

On the other hand if you can not understand the precept I will be happy to explain it further.

You will then lump yourself with the people who like to whine about how badly the world treats them. Please listen : IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!!! Read my post again: IT'S BETWEEN YOUR COMPANY'S MANAGEMENT AND THE UNION NEGOTIATERS!!! I hope that's now clear. You are merely a pawn in the matter. Sorry. For details please see your company's managers. I can not provide any more detail.

dennis in nca

Your interpretation of the situation sounds, while simplistic, not unreasonable in it's ideas. Yes, it's true: sometimes wage is negotiated away in favor of health care and other benefits such as vacation, pension, seniority, etc. For the rugged induvidual in other work circumstances this will seem familiar as these are the bargaining points often used in an individual's contract as well. If you, or someone you knew, was able to negotiate a favorable contract would you think this was somehow "wrong?"

If you're really interest in the truth, I'd suggest reading some history.

dennis in nca

My union as well Ron. But there's always some anti-union diehard who will jump in with an (uninformed) exception they've heard of, so don't be surprised.

dennis in nca

Sorry. But I'd suggest you be thankfull for the brother and sister anyway. I wish I could be.

I guess this is in answer to my question: "If you do would you fire your brother or sister (or child) because someone could do the job better??" Lousy answer, but I'll answer it anyway: If my family member were Adolph Hitler (close to what you were getting at? LOL) then, "Yes", I'd encourage him to turn himself in to authorities. But what does this prove???????

You can do better than this.

You misunderstand: We're not asking you to join. Go somewhere else. Next you'll no doubt have popeye jump out and begin hollering about unions supporting terrorism; idiotic reasoning.

Without facts everything in a discussion becomes a personal rant, which is what this appears to becoming. But I'll try:

Are you aware only 10% of the store cost of a head of lettuce is spent on labor (Dept. of Ag. figures) and only another 10% or so goes to the farmer. Would you rather see the middleman (with- out visible "negotiations" take your money?? Do I hear you complain about this?? Or is it only when the worker benifits you complain?? If YOU make more money does it diminish others?? Is this OK?? Is this a selfish attitude?? Ok for you but not for others??

the unsubstantiated stuff> Unions make mistakes too??? I never knew that.. Thanks for the news.

Well, I guess "You've got yours!!!" Harold. And anything government or corporations (same thing, right?) do is fine with you. Anyone who can't see any further than this can not be expected to carry on a decent conversation. It appears to me Harold, that you've "ossifed", become so rigid in your beliefs that nothing, including the "Second Coming" will change them (What's that? You're part of some "group?" LOL)

Sorry Harold, but your imitation of the "Duke" doesn't impress, despite the personal success (by "your" definition) you may have enjoyed.

dennis in nca

But they do "own" part of my money which IS a part of my life. OK?

Sounds good to me.

Good for you. Shows moral strength. But would you also fire these same people when they got older and you found you could hire a younger person for half the wage?

My taxes go to support your brother too, don't forget. And those of all my "brothers and sisters" as well. Your "little" brother, I'll bet.

Are you feeble? Do you know me? Your thinking is so limited and unimaginative as to make your statement meaningless:

"Your thinking is like my big toe; all gnarlly" Surely you can do better?

dennis in nca

ME ME ME ME ME MY MY MY MY MY

This discussion is not about YOU!!

We're happy you're pleased with yourself.

dennis in nca

Nothing, and unless you can provide FACTS mine remains the ONLY fact in this part of the discussion.

dennis in nca

Well Prom' it's evident we all pay taxes, and complain, so I don't see how that makes you special. In fact many, such as yourself, like the increased wages nearby unions bring, but are willing to bad-mouth them anyway, so I guess this doesn't make you special either. Anything new lately?

dennis in nca

Come to think of it, I saw *'s name twice this weekend while gutting deer. It was right there just below the tail.

David

The trick is getting THROUGH the picket line in one piece!!!!

Funny------when a reasonable point is raised---your common defense is it's "uninformed". You choose to discount anything worthy of consideration as if to imply only you are the one that is "informed". I'm beginning to see a pattern here-----a union pattern-----based on union dogma------"uninformed" union dogma.

You keep suggesting that others can "do better than that".

Uh huh! You sure as hell can. It's becoming obvious, at least to me, that you need a union-----and are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Wise and informed people have their own examples-----they need not parrot that which is union propaganda.

Harold

Strong? In your mind, dennis-----in your mind. You're a member of the losing team, with no prospects of becoming the winning team, if for no other reason, convoluted thinking. That's precisely what's wrong with unions, and a big part of why they are anything but "strong" these days. People can see through that facade easily.

Protecting worthless individuals while qualified people go without employment, or worthless people being employed along with qualified people, raising the cost of projects unnecessarily. Unearned money, dennis----which is the point you seem to conveniently overlook in the world you see through rose colored glasses. . NO ONE should be guaranteed a living wage unless they invest enough of their time and effort to EARN it. There is no free lunch. Someone, somewhere, is picking up the tab, and receiving nothing in return. If that's your idea of an ideal society, you won't get my vote-----not now-----not tomorrow-----not ever.

Harold