Unions

Can't be true. I have it on good authority that MW Ron's tops 74, although just barely.

Harold

If you didn't like the contract why did you sign it? Nothing like bitching "after the fact", hmm?

Oh? YOU didn't sign it, someone else did? Someone not as smart as you, no doubt. Talk about know-nothing whiners; sheech!

dennis in nca

messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net...

Hi Harold. "Angry" is fine when you do it, but pettyness doesn't really become you, IMHO. We all know you can do better.

dennis in nca

messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net...

************************************ Frank Lloyd Wright: If capitalism is fair then unionism must be. If men have a right to capitalize their ideas and the resources of their country, then that implies the right of men to capitalize their labor. Millwright Ron

****************************************** "Life has a taste that the protected will never know."

Even those that received a dishonorable discharge get a dd214.

Millwright Ron Combat Wounded Vietnam 68,69,70

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to

Sigh!

Yeah, I have to admit, that wasn't my best work. :-)

Harold

They gave him 5 points for his miltary service. :(

OTOH, why waste your best material?

I didn't _SIGN_ a contract, I was salaried, setting up an assembly line, trying to get qualified people to do the work. Wasn't give the option, got the ones who had the most seniority. Who happened to be lazy as rocks, and in several cases, incapable of doing the job.

Wow, project much? How about you answer the question - who benefits from valuing longevity of service over skills and ability, other than the oldest laziest guy on the crew?

No, No, No! I agree the lame and unfit should be shot and pushed off the road and out of the way of the more productive people, not.

This is exactly what I mean. If you're not a well functioning tool corporate is more than willing to discard you for a fresh one as soon as possible. This is the method many today, perhaps yourself included, have taken on as their mantra, feeling the human side of the equation can be overlooked.

As opposed to: In my local riggers union the younger members HELPED the older workers , as required, NOT try to push them out of the way in the mad scramble to the top we see in a lot of organizations. This is part of the "Brotherhood" you'll hear men- tioned from time-to-time, something many find it hard to relate to.

dennis in nca

And yet, I was forced to take what I was given, rather than the more qualified folks who didn't have the seniority. And I'm sorry but, if I hand someone drawings, a procedure, and 2 dozen bins of parts which were directly from the line I was building, and they can't follow the procedure, and drawings, and build the subassembly from them, that's not someone I would want assembling that widget, from those parts, with those drawings and procedures. Yet that's who I got.

Oh, I don't say he should have lost his old job, just that I wanted someone motivated and competant for -this- one. No discarding going on here, just a "sorry, you don't get to play with the new toys because your skills don't match the requirements".

So, you value years of service over ability. Yes, this is the part I have a problem with. I'd like someone who can _do the job_, you see. Years of service has little or nothing to do with that, either way. Chances are the lazy unskilled old guy, was lazy and unskilled when he was the newest guy on the crew.

My experience is that some people, union or not, are willing to put in a days work for a days pay. Others are not, and will try to do as little as possible. There is not too much one can do to change people.

The same things happen with salaried engineers. Some put in some effort to remain a " well functioning tool " , and others do not. But in the salaried world the people that put in effort to learn new technology get higher pay raises and avoid the bottom of the stacking chart. In the union world, management can usually give the hard worker a bit more of a raise, but is really limited in being able to reward those that are smart and willing to work.

I have seen this where a worker wanted some sort of flexible shift in order to go to school, but management could not allow that without allowing the same option to everyone that just wanted to start work later in the morning so they could watch the late show.

Not much difference unless there are layoffs. Then management tries to figure out someway to keep the best workers, but are really handicapped by the union rules. Often most of the union workers would be in favor of getting rid of the lazy workers and retaining the harder workers, but it makes no difference.

Unions do make the managers job much easier as there are less options on how to treat employees. Dan

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:07:33 -0800 in rec.crafts.metalworking, "SteveB" wrote,

Yep, that's what makes unions work. Violence trumps any argument.

I was actually responding to Millwright Wrong. I'm a retired Teamster, so know how "persuasive conversation" works. I was just saying that Millwright Wrong may spout off to the wrong person some day and find out that he's not Big Bad Millwright Wrong.

Steve

Yes, I value years of service over ability. Not only that, there's law written to protect people from being discarded, which is the preferred corporate method (those multi-million dollar bonuses have to come from somewhere).

I like someone who can do the job as well as you. But, I believe, unlike you, treating people like human beings comes first, not last, or whenever. I guess we just don't think alike.

If you're speaking about someone of your aquaintance I'll pass. If you're refering to my comment I'd say you're way off base.

dennis in nca

That's an interesting, if somewhat tounge-in-cheek, approach.

As I alluded earlier, the person who negotiates and signs the contract does so with eyes open and an expectation of profit. Doing so poorly and complaining about the terms later is a game for children, not adults, yet this is what goes on constantly.

dennis in nca

And I'm sure you have the statistics and cites to go with them?

I thought not. Another big mouth with nothing to offer.

dennis in nca

"SteveB" wrote

Dunno about you, but the best fighters I ever knew were small quiet guys. When they stood up, it was a good sign to grab your drink and head for the door.

Steve