Use of primitive tools

John R. Carroll wrote:


There is that, of course...
My personal piece, If I can pick anything I want would be a match grade M14 - big, heavy, clunky, old fashioned.
But it's one hell of a punch when you need one.
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Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?
i
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Ignoramus10998 wrote:

I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do it. Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix bayonets' mean anything to you?
--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

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Hm, and they told you that bayonets are for "disemboweling"?

I have never been taught how to use them, but I was taught how to affix them. In any case, I am not sure whether disemboweling people with the bayonet attached to a rifle, is very practicable. Maybe someone could shed light on that.
i
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Ignoramus10998 wrote:

The most effective disemboweling tool the Army ever possessed, and still does, is a radio. That currently would be either the AN/PRC-117F or my personal favorite, the AN/PRC-152
Older comm gear wasn't as reliable but was none the less extremely dangerous when employed properly. It also made a decent head rest.
--
John R. Carroll



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Ignoramus10998 wrote:

Bayonets in actual battle use are the absolute weapon of last resort. However the way that your taught to use them is to stab at the center of mass and use the rifles weight to aid your thrust into the vitals. Then you let the weight drop while you pull the bayonet out. Done correctly it leaves a LARGE belly wound so that you can actually let that enemy drop behind you.

Actually it isn't real hard, Keep in mind that a bayonet that has seen use won't have a very sharp edge. The weight of the rifle behind it helps it to penetrate farther faster. With the current bladed bayonets you have a LOT more of a chance of doing damage.
Now if you REALLY want to open up the belly you don't use the standard thrust motion taught in basic or AIT. You use a can opener move that actually uses the rifle as a lever. In that you turn the rifle on it's side. Stab it into the target, then as you come close to the target you step to the side and pull the rifle/bayonet around and out behind you. Instead of the 3-4" cut you get the other way you end up with a 6-10 inch open gash that really opens them up.
--
Steve W.

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Ignoramus10998 wrote:

It's a quick way to kill someone up close, when yo either have to keep quiet, or are out of ammo. Shove it in, twist, and jerk it out. Some of the intestines follow the bayonet as it is pulled out. It's not as fast as a bullet, but the chances of living aren't much better than being shot. It's not something for people with a weak stomach to have to do.

--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

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wrote:

Bayonets let you control captives with graded, non-lethal force backed by a bullet if necessary.
I've read that they are a preferred weapon for close-up, nighttime furball fights when you can't identify friend from foe at any distance. In Herbert McBride's WW1 autobio the trench-raiding machine gunners would bring only their spare barrels to use as clubs. They wanted live prisoners to interrogate.
jsw
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Jim Wilkins wrote:

What kept those prisoners in line? The knowledge that a quick bayonet thrust, and they are dead. of course you want to obtain information, but you can only control so many prisoners at a time.
--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

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wrote:

One of the finest trench weapons ever made, was the narrow bladed garden or "sod" spade.
Gunner
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" Unknown Usnet Poster
Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls. Keyton
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Yep. Much more effective than trying to lock up their brains with ludicrous winger conspiracy theories - ...
Andrew VK3BFA.

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On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:39:21 -0600, Ignoramus10998

Its very effective. Trust me
Gunner
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" Unknown Usnet Poster
Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls. Keyton
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On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:27:37 -0600, Ignoramus10998

Well.......shrug
Gunner
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" Unknown Usnet Poster
Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls. Keyton
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Most soviet bayonets were only useful for tent spikes or sticking people.
Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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Soviet bayonets can also cut wire.
i
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On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:28:36 -0600, Ignoramus10998

So can a bullet
Gunner
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" Unknown Usnet Poster
Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls. Keyton
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I started carrying a folder about the same time I was introduced to P38 - about age 5. No question IMHO that P38 is a superior tool but that is not the point. I do not know how long Swiss Army knives have been around. I got my first one about 45 years ago. The can opener design has not changed since then (although I did get my last one SAK about 8 years ago so I cannot be completely sure). I would find it hard to believe that most young men have not seen or handled an SAK at some point. I know that some of the Brit special forces like to buy and carry their own.
Any young man of my generation who ever was in a position to have to look after himself pretty much acquired the skill of can opening as a survival mechanism, using not just one or two can openers, but several.
So my first reaction to seeing the Leno show was first incredulity and than amusement. Later I began to wonder about the implications.
I understand that the current form of rations (MREs?) do not contain cans and, as someone pointed out, rightly so: They have other things to worry about. However, the rub of that argument is that overdependence on issue rations may not be a good thing in the "fog of war" situation. The extreme is to say that if not issued with MREs the troops would starve. The opposite of that is the Russian guerilla cavalry in WW2 who generally managed with a bagful of vegetables scrounged off the land for 3 weeks at a time.
Many have commented on the possible reason of this state of affairs and there is probably a bit of truth in all of them. I just could not get away from explaining how single young men survive without opening cans. Then it came to me: Take-out meals!
--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC
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I'm not sure it it is still the case, but it can depend on which brand of Swiss Army Knife you have. My father had a Wenger SAK, and the can opener on it was terrible. You had to stab it through the can top, and it cut up instead of down. You could take the top off a can OK, but it left a ragged sharp edge sticking up. Definitely not something you wanted to drink out of, for example.
Victorinox uses the downward cutting hook the same as the old Boy Scout knives, both similar to a P38 in basic design. I think Victoriox & Wenger got into some sort of patent / trade-mark legal contest back in the late 50's or early 60's when they first became popular in the US. After using my dad's, I couldn't imagine why anyone would want one until I discovered Victorinox had a decent can opener. Someplace I also have an SAK with a slit in the Phillips screw driver so you can use it to wind up a sardine can lid.
Doug White
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Michael Koblic wrote:

All you need to know...
Looney Tunes - "Canned Feud"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMqhGrmt828&feature=PlayList&p,428D668E4DE97D&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1

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And, what happens when we invade a country which uses cans? Troops run out of MRE and starve to death surrounded by captured warehouse of canned food?
--
Christopher A. Young
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