Wind Power

With this Cap and Trade BS, the way the market has been going, and the 30% investment tax credit; I have become totally convinced that now is the time
to install a wind power unit on the farm.
My power company will work with me as long as the unit is under 40KW. So, I'm looking for a 39.9 KW unit. The price range on all the equipment is $500 K.
I'm looking for folks with similar installations. Good decisions on equipment selection is extremely important. Any contacts out there?
Karl
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Karl Townsend wrote:

Try asking on:
alt.energy.homepower
Also check out homepower.com
Most stuff on those is a lot smaller than 40KW, but should provide some useful info. Have you checked the wind resources at your site? I hope you aren't anywhere near an airport, since a ~40KW unit will not be small or low.
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I cruised them. Pretty much small home units. I'm looking small scale commercial. My apple cooler uses more in a day than a home in a month. When I kick in the irrigation pump, the meter twists on the pole.
Karl
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It seems like you might be better off trying to improve the "efficiency" of your system rather than trying to generate power from wind. The only reason we have "wind farms" around here is that the utilities are required to have a certain percentage of their power generated from "green" sources... our power rates are going to go UP, in order to pay for the uneconomical wind power we're required to have.
"...will help meet requirements in Wisconsin law that 10 percent of the state's energy come from renewable sources by 2015." "The utility hopes to recover the costs through a $91.7 million electric and natural gas rate increase that it wants to impose next year. That breaks down to about $9 more per month for electricity and $2.40 more per month for gas for a typical residential customer. About a third of that increase would go toward the wind farm." http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g2xX-q6CCBDcLKpWnsh3aJ3do-oQD99B6JGG0
Have you looked at a geothermal heat pump for cooling your apples? http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978aes.....6.2785W How about a more efficient irrigation pump? http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/irrigate/ae1057w.htm
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On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:48:39 -0500, "David Courtney"

It's only "unenecomical" when viewed with tunnel vision. Coal power seems cheap until you consider the long-term costs of cleaning the air, or even the current costs of dealing with power-related illness. http://www.catf.us/publications/reports/Dirty_Air_Dirty_Power.pdf Fuel seems cheap until you consider the costs of trying to rule the Middle East. "Too cheap to meter" nuke power seems cheap until you consider that it's pie in the sky.

That should say "electrical energy". Which means that the effort is just a drop in the bucket.

I'm guessing that represents an increase of less than 10% for most homes. Peanuts for anyone serious about making positive changes.

Both good ideas. But society-wide, conservation alone isn't going to cut it. We'll need maximum conservation just to keep up with the increasing energy use of our gadgets http://www.which.co.uk/news/2009/05/gadget-use-blamed-for-soaring-electricity-bills-177014.jsp . New and better sources are a must. From an individual point of view, I can tell you that being free of the power company is really cool. Especially since it's clear that energy costs are bound to rise dramatically as the effect of decades of procrastination takes its toll.
Wayne
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Karl Townsend wrote:

The best sources will be those that detail what the Germans have been installing. It wouldn't be a terrible idea to study their entire model.
--
John R. Carroll



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Wow.... What's your expected payback or ROI on this? Financing? Sheeit, I can imagine a whole new genre of wind and sun-dances, and prayer.
--

Mr. PV'd

Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
  Click to see the full signature.
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My banker will loan me for anything, as long as I give him the deed to the farm. <VBG> Present ROI is nowhere. But, I forecast things to change. I'm not giving any more of my hard earned money to the fools in New York City. And I have little confidence in the fools in Washington, D.C. Plus, I think the fellas in the middle East don't have my best interests at heart.
Karl
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I suspect that it won't make economic sense without subsidies. The Germans make some pretty good wind power units, and yet their industry struggles. There have been a series of article in the Wall Street Journal on this.
Reliability has been a big problem, especially for some makers. Repairs are expensive, so an ironclad guarantee is necessary.
It may be better to have multiple smaller units rather than one large unit. Especially if the maker goes kaput.
Joe Gwinn
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Joseph Gwinn wrote:

One thing to make sure of is that you have "net metering" in your area, otherwise you'll be up shit creek from a practical standpoint. Basically net metering allows you to use the utility as a limitless substitute for a local battery bank to store the energy you generate when you aren't able to use it.
This net metering really amounts to a hefty tax on the utilities since they have to provide backup power equivalent to your excess generation at whatever time is convenient for you to fill in when you aren't generating, at no cost to you. Without net metering, you get to either pay full price for the power you need when your wind turbine isn't turning, or invest more $$$ in a big battery bank to store your peak generation for later use.
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wrote:

That *could* be true if the home generation of power ever amounts to more than 1% or so of the power on the grid. So far, it hasn't.

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Ed Huntress wrote:

Yes, which is why the utilities aren't making much stink about it. Expect that to change if / when it becomes a more significant percentage as commercial operations like Karl's farm start generating at their larger scales.
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On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:59:46 -0500, "Karl Townsend"

I suggest that you slap up a wind speed data logger ASAP. Accurate local site info will be the key to predicting production.
This thread http://tinyurl.com/mob7oh might interest you. It's about a single 10kW installation. The numbers will scale up and you can compare. Here's some more info http://www.bergey.com/Products/Excel.html that might give you a best-value baseline.
This site http://www.northeastwindenergy.com/ has lots of metal content, mostly about some seriously trick large folding towers. Might be worth emailing the author for contacts.
Use this http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen/Perfect_Turbine.htm to verify any power claims from vendors. He'd also be the guy to call for data acquisition advice.
In very round numbers... assuming a doubling of average power costs, 40kW might generate $10k of electricity per year. Even ignoring interest, you'd need to spend a whole lot less than $500k if you want to make it pay.
Wayne
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Wind is nowhere NEAR cost effective yet. Consider a nuke installation.
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On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:33:46 -0400, the infamous "Buerste"

Excellent idea. I wonder how much they want for a little 10MWer job...
-- Mistrust the man who finds everything good, the man who finds everything evil, and still more the man who is indifferent to everything. -- Johann K. Lavater
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The pay back would be very quick, Karl could sell Plutonium to terrorists.
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On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:53:34 -0400, the infamous "Buerste"

Oh, no. The little jobs can't create nasties for sale. So sorry!
-- Mistrust the man who finds everything good, the man who finds everything evil, and still more the man who is indifferent to everything. -- Johann K. Lavater
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Larry Jaques wrote:

Watch ebay for decommissioned submarines. You can store grain in the missile tubes. You'll need a trailer.
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wrote:

You just need to pickup a surplus one of these: http://englishrussia.com/?p=2355 Karl
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Karl Townsend wrote:

Make sure that the power company will commit to a long-term contract for your power.
Out here in California, businesses have been seriously burned by installing generating capacity and then having the utility lower their rate in what would seem to be a predatory manner. $500k is a lot to lose.
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