While you may be correct in your literal interpitation, HPR cert to launch a A/T G80T powered rocket, regardless of size, has not been the practice, any place I have launched. In any case, certification is only required for a single motor that ventures into the H range. "Single Motor size" is the definer for HPR cert requirements, NAR or TRA.
Fred
You are wrong. if launches are being run that way where you are, be they NAR or TRA, they too are wrong.
Bob, Are you telling me: "at your launches, someone wants to launch a a AT Baracuda ona AT G80-T, a rocket that weighs in at more than 1500g loaded, (at least mine soes), the individual can only launch if the individual is HPR cert level 1 or better"??? Say it isn't so Bob.....
Fred
Reading the NAR Model rocketry safety codes:
To me that reads that any rocket that weighs more than 1500g (53oz) does not fall under the model rocketry safety guidelines. The only other guideline for NAR is the HPR guidelines. Those guidelines are:
I don't see a minumum weight or a maximum. Just the maximum that the motor manufacterer recommends.
That covers NAR's guidelines. I can't speak for TRA nor for the FAA (or the BATFE, not that they should really care)
-Aaron
READ
Your right Aaron, my bad -- 1500 grams or greater is a high power rocket and must be launched as such. I wasn't thinking when I used the Barracuda loaded with a G80, as it only weighs in at slightly over 1lb
-- I just checked it. However, no mater the total weight, less than
1500g or greater than, you don't need HPR certification to launch the darn thing on a G80T. Hell, before I was HPR certified, (several years ago), I launched my LOC Mini-Mag on AT G80-4T motors on several occasions; and yes it was at wavered launches, but no one was concerned about my lack of cert level, just a lot of, "listen to that thing roar". It only went about 500' + or -, but it got there with authority.Fred
Before my level 1 cert, I walked right up to 3.3lbs (1500g) line, but never crossed it. Now that I have my level 2 cert, I'm in the pre-build stages of a 40+ pound monster. (near 1/2 scale patriot, if anyone cares) that I'll send up on an A/T K1275
If you built a rocket that used 2 A/T G80T motors, you'd still be able to launch it without a cert assuming that the rocket was less than
3.3lbs (1500g) and you had the proper FAA notification. The Aerotech website says that a G80T has 120 N-sec of thrust. 2 of these would put a rocket at 240N-sec, well below the 320N-sec limit. (I don't see what the big problem is. The Aerotech website for the G-Force says the dry weight of the rocket is 32 oz. You can add 21 oz of motor and payload before you reach the magical 53 oz limit. It falls below the limits for cert. If it will be stable on that motor, launch and enjoy!
-Aaron
One more thing; FAA has no authority and could care less about HPR certification as this pamphlet seems to imply, especially in the explanation of the fifth line. No mention of certification for rocketry launching is mentioned, anywhere in FAR 101.
Fred W
"W. E. Fred Wallace" wrote:
Ours is weighing in at 36.5 ounces. Built with medium CA for most of the rocket, the lugs are expoyied on and not painted (yet anyway).
I really don't know how that extra 4.5 ounces came from.
I have found that almost all kit makers underquote the dry weight of their rockets. I don't know why, but its almost always true. I think it's an "ideal" weight, but I have yet to build one that matched the specified weight.
36.5 oz = 1035g A/T G80T-4 = 105g Rocket + Motor = 1140gallowable payload = 360g or 12.7 oz
You could send up a full can of coke if you wanted. (I know fl oz != oz....but it would be kinda cool to send up a can of coke anyway)
-Aar> > >
Come on. Use your browser. You click on the link, then you delete the last few characters to get to the home page or root directory.
He does not ever say the FAA uses the term "HPR".
He does clearly state the FAA limits for notification for "LMR" (which IS an FAA term) and anything beyond an LMR requires an FAA waiver.
if you think he is incorrect, e-mail him.
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
Yes yes, I figured out all that browser stuff last night. One of the finest individual rocketry web sites I have ever visited..
I don't dispute the FAA notification and waver requirements, just the certification requirement to launch a G 80 powered 1500g + rocket. "Show me the money", directly and not implied rhetoric.
Fred W
Fred Shecter wrote:
characters
FAA term) and
Correct. And they have to use an HPR pad and meet HPR safe distances and we need a waiver and not just notification. Ditto for a Mustang with a G33, or when they were available an F101 (except for the waiver parts on these light rockets).
I would question the Mustang with a G33. The Aerotech website lists the dry weight of a Mustang as 320g. glue/paint/sloppy build/etc make it 400g. A G33 is certified as 100N-sec of impluse with 72.2g of propellant and weighs 160g. A rocket weighing in at 560g, having a motor that is less than 160N-sec and less than 125g of propellant. No cert is required but a FAA notification would be (1.2lbs for this configuration) An HPR pad would not be required, neither would HPR safety distances. I could find the numbers for the F101, but as they are no longer certified, it doesn't really matter.
All limitations are moot if the RSO/LCO raises those limitations. An RSO can tell you to launch that Quark from a HPR pad if they want and you'll launch it from there or it wont launch at all.
-Aaron
After re-reading this (type, read, THEN post, I know) the G33 exceeds the 62.5g limit for a single motor. My applogies.
-Aaron
It solves so many problems. and it has pretty pictures.
Yea, but a G80T does not exceed 62.5g, so why the need for HPR certification to launch the motor in a 1500g + rocket? All I can find indicates launch it as a HPR; nothing about being certified to fly HPR. Maybe the understood intent is that you would use an H or above HPR motor to launch. This whole subject is starting to get anal. All I know for sure; I launched my Loc Mini-Mag on A/T G804T before I was HPR certified and no one had an issue with it. And by the way, it was at a NAR launch right in good old Middletowm MD..
Fred
So, now we know...
"Who flew the G???"
David Erbas-White
The G33 has, as you point out 72g propellant. Since that's over 62g, it's no longer a model rocket motor. That makes it HPR. Look at the data sheet on the NAR web page: it correctly identifies it as an HPR motor.
The F101 is HPR cuz it's over 80N average thrust. Ditto for the G104 and G125.
One more time for the Garrett Morris crowd:
There are several limits for what is a model rocket: total weight, total propellant weight, propellant weight of any single motor, average thrust of any single motor, and total impulse. [what did I forget?] Exceed any one of those limits, and your rocket is now an HPR rocket, requiring certification and use of the HPR safety code instead of the MR safety code.
PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.