Compromise S724 Bill Developed by ARSA

Sometime in the next ten years;-)

Steve Schafer NAR #80427 L2

no, NAR insistence on second-guessing John W. cost $30,000 but the real cost of TRA/NAR interference in the legislative effort is incalculable

well, at least the HPR user community that is satisfied with flying

3.3 lb rockets with 0.9 lb single use motors

I have no problem with the NAR leadership deferring to John W. in all matters related to legislative relief, as per my submission to the BoD meeting agenda

- iz

The cost of John Wickman's unrealistic ill-planned attempt is already calculable. His FUD announcements over the past few months have already been proven to have causes many people to stop flying rockets when there was no basis in fact. There is nothing more for him to do but cover his tracks and blame others.

You are beginning to sound psychopathic with this slipping grasp on reality you have. Imagine what could be gained and what you could learn by actually considering all the difficult issues going on here.

Of course, it's much easier to play "follow the leader" and not think for yourself, isn't it? Keep blatting your simple-minded nonsense but be prepared to have people check your delusional rhetoric. You (and your leader) are a sum negative effect on the real progress of rocketry issues.

-John DeMar NAR #52094

So, because of your personal situtation, you are willing to risk more complications by pushing an unrealistic legislative effort? Will you also take responsibility for complications caused by not predicting that things could end up worse by 'waking a sleeping giant'? Will you also take responsibility for slowing down the lawsuit by introducing new issues? Will you also take responsibility for supporting something (and somebody) without the means of following through when things get tough?

I'm not putting myself into a position of authority and pretending to be a spokeman for all rocketeers. You can take my opinion or ignore it, as you see fit, of course. Also keep in mind that just because a majority of messages are posted with a certain opinion doesn't mean it represents the "silent majority".

-John

You communicate well. I'm just dense, tend to forget things, and gleean too much "information" from RMR.

Perhaps, but can you name a $30,000 or so project that the NAR has funded in the same period?

That is why I called it pointless.

Hey, let's not turn this into a MR vs HPT thing. HPR is good for the sport, and even good for MR. However, if cogress blows HPR out of the water, god forbid, I don't want to see the NAR and MR go down with the ship. I don't expect HPR to be a cash cow for MR, and I don't want to see the NAR driven into bankruptsy in a failed attempt to save HPR.

Alan

That's because TRA/NAR felt it would be better to save the legislation until after the lawsuit had been settled. This would have avoided any risk of screwing up the lawsuit or having the judge wait to see whether we get any relief from Congress. Also, as we have seen, once a bill is introduced into Congress we have no control over it. In Congress there's no telling what the outcome will be -- they can give us something entirely different than what we ask for. In court, you either win the case or not, but you don't end up with something else altogether.

I would be demanding our leadership's head(s) if they didn't second guess anyone outside of the organization. Since John W. is not NAR President, would blind sheepish behavior be more acceptable to you? I have lots of respect for Sen. Enzi, and I have respect for John W. Except he keeps crying 'Wolf' to alarm people, then quietly changes the text on his website after the fact without publicizing his change of stance.

Wait, you just answered my question. Never mind.

The current practice that has worked for 40 years is record of sale to verified buyers. On FBI inverstigations, large motor sales records are available for determination of specific questions about specific buyers ala the IRA investigation and others. It works.

I have been saying on rmr since DAY ONE "record of sale metric" and, has anyone listened to a successful long term vendor with actual investigation experience?

Nope.

Jerry

I can tell you how to get rid of them TODAY.

Reverse all of these acts:

From: Jerry at 1:15 PM EST Have policies REQUIRING consumers get LEUP even if exempt according to the law and ATF From: Jerry at 1:15 PM EST Have policies REQUIRING dealers get LEDP even if exempt according to the law and ATF From: Jerry at 1:14 PM EST Have policies REQUIRING manufacturers get LEMP even if exempt according to the law and ATF From: Jerry at 1:14 PM EST Run full paage ads in internationally available newsstand magazines stating ATFvpermits are required for motors which is blatently false per

27 CFR 55.141-a-8 (The Orange boob, ATF's bible) From: Jerry at 1:13 PM EST They call to "turn in" people making it ATF's duty to not only investigate but aply resources to "prevention". From: Jerry at 1:12 PM EST Contact them asking for rulings and being good bureaucrats they give the most anal ruling possible. From: Jason W (Home Page) at 1:12 PM EST ATF is only a problem because TRA and NAR love sticking sharp sticks in their eye? Explian? From: Jerry at 1:10 PM EST ATF is only a problem because TRA and NAR love sticking sharp sticks in their eye.

Well, that was the plan, and don't forget that we also have issues with the DOT, EPA... It remains to be seen if Wickman's efforts will actually save the NAR any money in the end. Note that Wickman/Enzi's bill only provides limited HPR exemption from the SEA. It does not exempt HPR from other burdensome government regulation.

Alan

Are you sure? Ask the folks who've been held by our government without access to legal representation or family or anyone outside since shortly after 9/11. No charges. No trials. Just permanently detained...

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

My history is foggy on this part, so correct me if I'm wrong...

Gary started out as a motor-developer for the military/aerospace departments. Industrial Solid Propellants (ISP) came first, and AT was a spin-off of that. Same with Cesaroni - he started out developing large-scale rockets for research, and the ProXX series happened because there was a market.

Kosdon, AMW, Ellis, and even Jerry started off selling to hobby consumers. They were EXers who, because their motors drew the interest of everyone else, formed companies to market their motors.

Sooo... I should start my motor-making company *first*, and THEN start developing motors... :-)

Not really. He was an amateur motor experimenter before he worked at Bermite.

Reversed.

AT started first thanks to sole customer Jerry Irvine.

ISP started later in response to deals raised through a network I created and Gary "took over". I have never seen a dime from that work despite alleged referrals and allegeed "exclusive territories".

Dunno.

Kosdon was a motor experimenter involving case bonded polysulphide motors. He teamed up with me, and everythig he has released is actually copies of my products, designs and formulas,. The court ordered "all" company assets returned to me.

AMW is really Kosdon East and What Kosdon stole from me Robinson stole from Kosdon. Unclean hands and conversion. Do not do business with Kosdon or AMW.

Ellis I do not know the origination of his technology whether stolen or developed.

I started developing motors in 1970 and made my first "model rocket motor" in 1972. It was a 29mm E20 with AP/hydrocarbon propellant, variable throat nozzle, delay, ejection, phenolic case, etc. I was not aware at the time how sophisticated it was as compared to other products present and future. A variation of that became the Internal Ballistics H, I, J, K motors.

Composite Dynamics 01 1979-76 (Tustin, CA) Composite Dynamics 02 1978-82 (Torrance, CA) Plasmajet 1978-90 (Santa Ana, CA) Internal Ballistics 1979-85 (Covina, CA) Composite Distribution 1978-present (Claremont, CA) Small Sounding Rocket Systems 1974-85 (WA) Rocket Development corp 1968-72 (OK, OH) Irvine 1972-present (Claremont, CA and others) Aerotech 1982-present (CA, NV, UT)

Just Historical Jerry

Okay - I *obviously* have the entire history of hobby motor-making wrong... I'll shut up. :-)

Not taking any sides here Jerry, but if the court ordered company assets returned, then what's the hold up or reason that it hasn't been actuated or enforced?

Just curious----

-Boomer

We are in negotiation to avoid further litigation.

You've left off the earlyer stuff Gary did. IIRC he started out doing AM, then formed his first company, Composite Dynamics. Model rocket E-F motors, and larger uncertified stuff. After selling off his share of that he and Dan started ISP doing military stuff, and when his no-compete with CD expired, AT was born.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Basically the legislative effort is an 'entanglement' that required close scrutiney by our legal counsel. To know about it's (S724) existance, and completely ignore it from a legal standpoint, would be a mistake.

steve

Our NAR pres himself stated that a large amount of the legal fund went to Kyte so he could keep close scrutiney on S724.

steve