[history] MR-LMR-HPR-?

Jerry Irvine wrote:


Prove there is no enforcement. Openly manufacture and sell motors without ATF permits.

"Nothing" is not a win.

Random, meaningless insults don't change the facts.
r
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And since there is no enforcement, we are stuck with nothing.
Oh, and your fear and loathing in the mean time.

Finding:
"In addition, the Court finds that the ATF's pronouncement that sport rocket motors are not PADs is invalid because it was made without compliance with the notice-and-comment rulemaking procedures of the OCCA and the APA."
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Oh brother wrote:

his
ATFs.
exists.
That's not what he said in his most recent ruling:
"ORDERED, that the plantiffs' request for the Court to (1) order the ATF to recognize sport rocket motors as propellant actuated devices and (2) order that the Question and Answer sheet currently posted on the ATF's website either be removed or revised are DENIED. It is further ORDERED, that the parties shall proceed with the litigation of this case as previously scheduled by the court."

No, the truth matters. Ignoring any facts that get in the way of what you want is not the truth.

own
the
court of

would be a

Try reading everything on the case, not just the parts you like.
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A form of RELIEF, he said wait till later, not NO.

A form of RELIEF, he said wait till later, not NO.

A form of RELIEF, he said wait till later, not NO.

READ THIS!!!!!

That applies to you and what YOU said!!!!!!

Try understanding the legal meaning of what you read. Have a LAWYER read and explain it to you Ray.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

om...
him
the
exemption
the
and
the
It is not a "form of relief". He allowed the ATF to continue enforcing their published interpretation of the law, which is that there is no PAD exemption for sport rocket motors. He did say we could take it up later, but until then we're stuck with the ATF's position. "Wait until later" is not "yes".
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om...

It's interesting the phrase "However, this challenge is not properly before the Court.".

Yes, to be more right than Jerry no matter how deep it takes rmr.
Previous statement from NAR/TRA legal (not a bunch of on-line Don Quixotes) and unchanged/corrected: "This means that unless and until BATFE properly promulgates a rule rescinding the 1994 PADs exemption, fully assembled rocket motors are propellant actuated devices under the law and are exempt from regulation by BATFE."
And in the 11/2/04 and 12/22/04 statements from legal: "Also, we again strongly recommend that members in the field report in detail any actions taking by ATF personnel in the field, particularly if they use the ATF's "Questions and Answers" as the basis for their action"
But,.. you win (and rmr loses). I'm going to hit the filter thread shower to see if I can get rid of the stench. Please continue bickering with and quoting Jerry. It leaves those who filter him and his club but one choice.
P.S. If anyone is still reading, please donate to the legal fund https://secure.consumersinterest.com/nar/NARfrompres9911.html#donorform and if you want to actually discuss rocketry: www.rocketryforum.com

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I'm not sure I agree with your doom and gloom predictions... I think this is purely NAR/TRA propaganda that is used by the major orgs to continue their lawsuit....
Over in the UK they have much stricter controls on APCP motors then even the BATFE wants over here: in the UK ANY APCP motor is considered an explosive with the requiste licenses and magazines required. Even with that heavy burden, if you talk to any of the UK rocketeers they will tell you that over the past 10-15 years or so, HPR has actualy grown: and the deciding factor that has stunted growth somewhat has been the lack of available motors due not to their overly restrictive explosives laws, but due to the fact of their EU CE marking requirements( you can think of CE marking as the equivalent of our DOT requirements for testing and classification-EX numbers) and the fact that major UK HPR companies just haven't put in any order lately for AT/RCS motors due to this CE marking requirement. Once the CE marking gets sorted out, they will have a plenthora of APCP motors to use.
Theres no doubt the future holds price increase but thats more a function of the marketplace than any onerous manufacturing requirements.
I will suggest that those people who have LEUP will continue to get LEUP.....I will also suggest that those that refuse to get LEUP will still refuse and will go on to alternate forms of rocketry: whether it be Hybrids(my bet) or AR....although the CPSC seems to have started a push to tighten the AR market as of lately...and if the laws become so onerous for HPR that people will just not hassle with it all, theres always model rocketry to fall back on......HPR may be eventually banned in this country but Model Rocketry will live forever....
And I hope I don't live to see the day when people decide to break the laws to use black market motors, but I think we have already gone there and done that.....
If the HPr market dries up here in the USA sue to over-regulation you can always move to Canada or the UK, Switzerland or the Netherlands where HPR seems to more welcome and I would submit is actually growing....
shockie B)
Jerry Irvine wrote:

Estes,
schools
technology,
be
Depends on the outcome of the court case. If we win, it'll be a whole new era of growth for the hobby.
If we lose, it'll drastically alter the hobby and radically reduce participation. If HPR survives at all it will only be at a few locations, hosted by clubs with large on-site magazines. The reduced market will kill off some manufacturers and dealers, and force massive price increases on those who remain. Anyone who can't get storage, or can't/won't get a LEUP, will either be forced out of the hobby or be driven underground, dependent on homemade and/or black market motors.

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Membership figures are not propoganda. They are real.

Not exactly.
There are exempt classes by UN number where there are no storage requirements or posession limits at all.
The only caveat is they have to be 100% pre-manufactured.
No TRA-EX, no major modifications.

Yes.
( you can think of CE marking as the

NO!!
That is their HSE.
This message is repleat with examples of what I said in email to you. You speak before vetting ANYTHING at all.
Your posts cannot be trusted. That is not a personal attack, but a fact.
Jerry
massive clueless rants left in for the amusement of experts.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

Last membership figures I saw for the NAR at least shows a steady number....

thats not what HSE tells me... HSE tells me that ALL APCP motors are explosives.....

what do you mean by No here? I was making an analogy..... DOT farms out its testing to 4 entities here in the USA for UN number classification, .... CE marking for civil explosives is the essentially the exact same thing in the UK by the HSE.... The HSE does the testing (or other CA does the testing ) and the CE marking results in UN numbers assignment... The test done for Ce marking is essentially the same tetst the DOt require per the UN tests manual.....

You're the person that doens't know what he talking about.... I am in contact with HSE about certain issues and thats what they tell me...I have also done extensive study and research on CE marking.....

At least I know better than to ship rocket motors as model aircraft parts....what does that say about you vetting anything?
dohhhh
shockie B)
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What ever for ?
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He's 'helping' Big Fine get everything straighened out. 8-)
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Good question.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:38:22 GMT, "shockwaveriderz"

I think Big Fine should have been an expert by the time he earned his name. He'd really have to be stupid if he didn't - but then again his name should tell you something. 8-)
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Apple Computer grew something like 400%.
Perhaps NAR could manage 20?
Jerry

No.
... The test

No.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

Was 399 of that from the iPod?
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80/20
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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ok jerry whatever.. I have the HSE application guide sitting here in front of me and that's what it says....
perhaps you will inform me as to what CE marking for civil explosives results in? shockie B)

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On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:47:57 GMT, "shockwaveriderz"

I bet it begins with Big and ends with Fine.
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Fixated.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Poor jerry doesn't like the reputation that he cultivated for himself.
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