My LEUP Nightmare

shockwaveriderz wrote:


I'd say that the crux of the problem is that the ATF doesn't care what the regs say, they just make up their own crap and enforce it as law. This imaginary 62.5g limit is a perfect example. They can't show you anything in the regs that says the PAD exemption is limited to only PADs which contain no more than 62.5g of propellent, because there is no such limit in the law. But they still enforce it as if it actually exists, because they operate outside the law with impunity.

Nothing in NFPA codes limits PADs to 62.5g. "Model rocket motors" are limited to that, but that has nothing to do with PADs or the PAD exemption.

It won't, but it will force them to acknowledge and enforce the fact that: 1. Rocket motors are Propellent Actuated Devices 2. There is no limit in the law on the size of PADs

IMHO Al's mistake was in logging the motors as sold (an impermissible transfer), when he should have logged them as having been used.
p
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ray: I don't even think PADS are mentioned in the NFPA codes once. But they do define a model roket motor as having <= 62.5 g propellant, and by extension hpr motors are defined as those > 62.5.
I don't know why the NAR/TRA in their lawsuit don't bring up the fact that the FFA has 113/125 g propellant limit and the FAA also have had a 4oz/113g limit since the dawn of history. If the NAR had more fully implemented the Large Model Rocket class by defining a LMR motor for sell to adults only,(as G motors and RMS motors are).
Ray just out of couriosity if the BATFE came to the NAR/TRA tomorrow and said: Ok we will exempt Full J's from oversight,storage,LEUP,etc., which means the BATFE would only require LEUP for KLMN motors, do you think the NAR/TRA membership would agree?
shockie B)
Also NFPA says rocket motors must be classed as explosives to be certified as rocket motors (or as a flammable solid)..I guess the NAR/TRA will have a lot of cleaning up to do with the NFPA codes if and when we ever win this lawsuit. By the way, has anybody seen the appeal papers yet? Has the appeals already been filed? I was curious as to the grounds for appeal.
shockie B)

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On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:46:14 GMT, "shockwaveriderz"

Yeah! The Future Farmers of America are the Authority Having Jurisdiction here, after all!
- Rick "Making hay and sowing wild oats" Dickinson
--
Rick Dickinson - snipped-for-privacy@notesguy.com
National Association of Rocketry (NAR) # 73975 Level 2
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

Correct.
Yes, so? Are you saying there should be no distinction between model and high power rocket motors? That's all this is, in the NFPA. It's not a license for the ATF to regulate high power motors in defiance of the law.

How do you know they haven't brought that up? What makes you think it's relevant to the ATF's policy regarding high power rocketry? What difference would it make if the ATF had chosen one of those other numbers as their imaginary limit?

I'm not sure what your point is here.

I have no idea. I also don't see the point in speculating on it, since the ATF has refused all attempts at compromise.

Correct.
I don't think we've gotten to the appeals stage yet, since we haven't even received a final ruling on the initial suit. However, we have amended the suit to include the issue of whether or not rocket motors are PADs.
h
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

The appeal has been filed (USCA 04-5453) and is in work. That was the point of the motion last year for a final ruling on count one of the lawsuit.
--
David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz /
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David Schultz wrote:

So they've filed an appeal on that count, what about the others? Has there been a final ruling on all counts? Also, I thought the case was still before the same judge -- if it's on appeal, wouldn't be in appeals court?
0
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Clueless.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

jerry, If you are "clueless", why are you even bothering to respond?
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By reading the legal briefs.

Jerry told you so.

The NAR President already did, during the legislative effort, so the answer is yes.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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So you are citing NAMES of INDIVIDUALS who clearly violated federal regulations as approved?
Cool.
Wat is the "penalty" for doing that?
Jerry

Need I place the call?
I AM uniquely qualified.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Why don't you report those individuals and find out? To whom would you report them?
o
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Why, because you're a felon?
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David Schultz wrote:

In reviewing this portion:
========="The exemption at 27 CFR Part 55, section 141(a)(8) includes propellant-actuated "devices." The term "device" is interpreted to mean a contrivance manufactured for a specific purpose. Under this definition, a fully assembled rocket motor would be exempt. However, the propellant, prior to assembly, would not be exempt."
=========I would like to point out that a 'grain' would properly be termed a device in this definition. It is a "contrivance manufactured for a specific purpose". It has dimensions, tolerances, tests that must be passed, etc. Raw propellant would be considered a 'raw material', but since the grain has to meet both dimensional (i.e., mechanical) and compositional requirements, it should, by any reasonable reading of the definition, be termed a device -- especially since it is (definitively) "manufactured for a specific purpose". To prove that, one only need to point to the motor casings (which may even be patented, I don't know), which is what they are manufactured for.
David Erbas-White
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Furthermore DOT also defines it as an article and not a substance.
Federal regulations are so inconvenient, even for the federal government.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Not nearly as inconvenient as they are for everyone else. The Feds can ignore them and do as they please, until a judge puts a stop to it.
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This is already in the LOG, so why even boher to put it in the FAQ??
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

That language is in the NFPA codes because the other members of NFPA insisted on it. If you believe that TRA/NAR can write anything they want without any input or interference from the rest of the NFPA, you've been listening to Jerry too long.

When will you wake up and smell what Jerry's been shoveling?
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Simply false.

And would be right if you filter out the typical misplaced Dunakin extremism.

27 CFR 555.141-a-8
Shoveling it for a decade.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Prove it.

Don't sell yourself short Jerry, you've been shoveling it a lot longer than that.
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On 17 Aug 2005 14:06:09 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
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Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
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Ray: Prove it
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Ray: Prove it
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Ray: Prove it
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Ray: Prove it
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Jerry: was not! You are delusional
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Jerry: was not! You are delusional
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Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
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Ray: Prove it
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Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
Jerry: was not! You are delusional
Ray: Prove it
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