Questions for TRA members

The following are serious questions, and are not meant as anything else. This is not a setup, entrapment, or any kind of sting. I would appreciate getting serious, straightforward, non-emotional answers.

In light of the recent threads concerning TRA, since I'm not a member, I decided to take a look to see if it would be worthwhile to join. So, I went to the Tripoli website to review the costs, etc. relating to becoming a member. This is the first time that I have ever looked at the Tripoli site.

First, when I looked at the 'joining' page, it said that I must sign that I accepted to follow the by-laws of the association. Now, as a general rule (having been burned in the past), I don't sign things without reading them. I have also heard tales on rmr from folks complaining that rules had been put forth with no proof, etc. So, I looked all over the website, and can't find out where the bylaws are. Where is the URL for them? If they are not available, can anyone comment on how legally binding an agreement is if the agreement itself is not disclosed?

Next, I looked at the 'insurance' page, in order to see what the coverage and such is, I'm disturbed by a couple of things. The question "why is insurance so expensive" says that because insurance is global, and TRA is international, that the cost is inordinately high. I'd frankly like to know how many (percentage) of members are international, and what the price difference would be if the insurance covered US only. I'm somewhat at a loss as to how one insurance company would cover insurance in, for example, China. I also note that the insurance page indicates it was last updated in February of 2002, but under the question "Who can I or a landowner contact for more information", the answer is "This is still being addressed", and under the question "What do I do in the event of a potential loss" it says "Click on the Link below for the document" (referring to the accident report form), but where it says "Accident Report Form" it also says "should be available in a few days".

None of the above gives me a very good feeling about how the organization is operating. I'm further concerned because there are apparently ongoing concerns about the delivery of issues of the magazine, and frankly, if I'm going to pay such an exorbitant price for a magazine (though it's claimed to be discounted), I'd like to know who is actually responsible for it. Since the check is made out to TRA, I would have to assume that TRA is responsible, especially since it is part of the application form.

Last, I looked at the 'Documents/Miscellaneous' page, and it shows the results for the 2002 election. Now, if there is not an election every year, this makes sense, but if there is an annual election of any sort, I would be a bit disturbed if there is still no results (I won't go into the disturbing nomenclature I found WITHIN the election results--such as the 'assumption' that since they received a few phone calls about late delivery of the voting ballots, they would accept phone calls only from those who complained, and that since no phone calls were received, there must not have been any problems/discrepancies). So, since I can find no bylaws, can anyone tell me how often elections are held, how many directors there are, and how long their terms are for?

Thanks in advance, I would appreciate 'thoughtful' answers only, please. Anyone wanting to 'rant', please take it to the next door down the hall...

David Erbas-White

Reply to
David Erbas-White
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David the web site is under a major renovation. This is being done by volunteers who are also busy with their own lives. My prefect is the web master and I know that they just had a new baby so I would imagine that his time is pretty well taken up. That said there is very little else I can comment on except that HPR the magazine is it's own entity. As I understand it Tripoli collects the subscription money and passes it on to Bruce Kelly. It is up to him to produce the magazine in a timely manner. To stand or fail as it were. On the insurance I understand it that TRA insurance is a primary Insurance as opposed to NAR insurance which is secondary. I hope others will fill in the blanks I have left. I know that the folks in my prefect are a really great bunch of people and if it weren't for them I would not be flying High Power. Bill Richardson TRA 8703 L2

David Erbas-White wrote:

Reply to
BRich

Understatement...!

-dave w

Reply to
David Weinshenker

snip: "can anyone comment on how legally binding an agreement is if the agreement itself is not disclosed?"

Legally speaking, if you sign a document it is assumed that you have read and understand everything in that document.

Reply to
NaCl

If part of the agreement is itself a waiver from needing to see the entire text or claiming to have already read it the agreement is sufficiently valid to dispute in court. Howeber such provisions are rarely upheld unless the agreement to the provision is made in a "compelling and knowing way".

In short. No.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

THis is correct. One comment I'd like to add is that you should not subscribe to HPR. It's a ripoff. You can find details on that from discussions within the last month or two.

Phil Stein

Phil Stein

Reply to
Phil Stein

I will try to answer all of your questioins in line about the insurance coverage provided to the membership of TRA as part of their annual dues.

I cannot tell the exact percentage of Non US members, but I would not want to exclude them from membership. The primary cost of our insurance being so high, is that it is primary coverage.

Since we have no Chinese members, I can't answer that question, but I do know there would be a coverage issue for a landowner, if clear ownership for a given launch site was not established.

When our first Chinese member signs up, or a launch is to be held in China, I will get right on it.

Any member or landowner who has a question can contact me, and if I can't answer the question, I can contact our insurance broker for more information.

Any member or landowner who has been issued a certificate of insurance has a contact number for any questions.

I have contact the TRA web master to complete this. It should be done right away.

Bruce Kelly is the published of High Power Rocketry Magazine. Please contact him directly and ask for a publishing schedule. If you can't get one, and you are concerned about that, you can still join TRA without the magazine.

Please remember, the people who do this are all volunteers. As Insurance Liaison, I am not perfect, but I try to do my best to serve the membership's needs on what little free time I have when not running a business and raising a family. I cannot tell you how mant times I have been frantically be contacted by a member needing an insurance certificate or some ohter information to be able to hold their launch who waited until the last minute to do it. I have never said no, even going to my office late at night to get it done.

Feel free to contact me in person at the phone numbers listed on the TRA web page if you wish to speak to me personally about insurance issues.

Reply to
Jeff Barnes

Elections are held annually, the winners officially announced at LDRS. That was, uh, July? And the web page hasn't been updated since then to reflect the changes in the BoD. There are nine persons on the BoD, each serving for three years with one-third of the BoD up for election each year. The BoD chooses the officers from among itself for one year terms. The popular vote for President is purely advisory.

And you will receive a copy of the by-laws with your other new member stuff after you've joined. (Yes, AFTER you've signed the pledge on the application to abide by them.) If you want to read them first, you'll have to find a member and read his copy.

I wouldn't recommend plopping down cash for HPR magazine until BK proves he can deliver as promised.

+McG+
Reply to
Kenneth C. McGoffin

I just want to commend you for posting this to a PUBLIC site. It is a refreshing and positive development. You do your club well, sir.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

who are the current board members, and what is their tenure?

- iz

Kenneth C. McGoff> Elections are held annually, the winners officially announced at LDRS.

Reply to
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed

David, thanks for these questions. I would like the opportunity to reply to those that I can shed some light on, so as Iz says, responses in line.....

I believe Jeff Barnes is working with Kevin T, the webmaster, to correct this. BTW, to my knowledge, there has only been one claim/loss filed in the history of TRA launch insurance, involving an Estes C motor powered MR at a TRA launch, an excellent safety track record....

First off, from an international insurance carrier's point of view, like say for instance AIG, covering members in other countries is less a liability than covering members in the US due to a more litigous environment that we endure here. Currently, there are approx 3085 TRA members, with aprox 175 members in the following countries: Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, Switzerland, Italy, England, Belgium, Ireland, Germany, The Netherlands, Isreal, France, Holland, Sweden, Austria, and Spain (hopefully I have not left out any countries). From an actuarial risk assessment, the liability incurred by these few members is slight, hence, the difference in cost is slight, and I would hate to see any members of other countries left out. Second, yes, the policy is real, and it is Primary insurance coverage, ie, any potential claim would bounce this policy first, and yes, it is more expensive, I estimate based on my current studies, coupled with my past experience as a licensed insurance agent holding a fire, life, casualty, auto, and health insurance Texas practice license, that approximate cost savings changing it to secondary would save 20-30 percent. Another real factor that makes the policy so expensive actually centers around 2 things, 1. The fact that the market is so small (3100 members is chicken feed to potential insurance coverage candidates, hence reducing the pool of potential bidders and

  1. the insurance covers non specific risks, ie, it is a blanket policy covering literally over a hundred named insured sites and landowners, not just members, with no site specific liability risk assessment studies. I currently have a professional, certified, Loss Control Consultant company doing a site specific study on liability risk as it pertains to our site (no standing timber, few, if any, nearby domiciles, low traffic usage at nearby roads, no nearby gasoline refinerys or military ammo dumps, you get the idea) in the remote area of the panhandle of Texas. Armed with that study, I will be able to approach any number of potential candidates for an insurance quote for "just that site". I can tailor that insurance quote around such things as fire coverage, primary versus secondary, deductibles, etc, into an affordable policy for POTROCS members. I hope you can understand that all the above is possible because of the unique characteristics of our site. To duplicate this effort on a nationwide scale, logistically speaking, on a per site basis, would be monumental. Another thing that needs to be taken into consideration is the average number of participants expected at any given launch. Throw in the possibility of hosting an LDRS sized launch, and the insurance carrier will charge accordingly for increased risk exposure. Posted safety codes, diligently enforced, is also a factor that an ins. carrier looks at.

Actually, HPR is a separate business entity, and subscription is entirely voluntary. Personally, and this is just Pat speaking, I would prefer that separate checks be sent in for memberships and magazine subscriptions. For HPR to be listed on the TRA website, HPR agrees to do several services, like posting free LDRS launch ads, sending out free magazines to potential TRA members, posting in the magazine Prefecture listings and contacts, etc. And please don't hammer me guys about lack of issues, content, etc, I'm just the messenger here, telling you what I know. I do know this, if HPR does not produce and offer a product worthy of subscriptions, that business entity will cease to exist. I do know that HPR is working on its own website, soon to be announced, and that they are ramping up to produce issues as they have a sizeable amount of contributors of current articles. It will be up to free enterprise to discern the value of the product and its future.

covered above with my own personal statements. And please note that the application form has been changed in an effort to make clear that magazine subscriptions are entirely optional. While I'm commenting personnally, I too have paid for issues not received, and I don't like it either. But I did reup my subscription cause I want to see my 3 recent articles I sent in published (G). Darn good ones too, I might add bashfully...blush...

That oversight (as far as posting current election results), is being addressed as I write, hopefully this will be corrected soon.

I would hope that the bylaws will be posted soon on the TRA website. Kevin is doing a heck of a job as a volunteer, and I for one am most appreciative..

Thanks again David

Pat G

Reply to
Potrocs

The Christmas spirit must have invaded TRA because this is yet another PUBLIC posting of TRA business with actual helpful information and details.

Kudos again!

Based on recent experience (5 years+) this is NOT the case.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

quoting a Pat G post>>

JI replies.......

Pat G replies>

.....hmmm, looking at my ever shrinking collection of HPR over the last 5 years, I can't argue with that!! But hope springs eternal in this humans breast. While stimulating, I did not get in to rocketry to duke out political issues. I like to fly rockets and read about others doing the same. Merry Christmas fellow rocket nerds!. Hopefully the reason for the season will even invade this forum...yeah, I know, perhaps I'm naive, but I'm still clinging to that "hope springing eternal" gig

Pat G

Reply to
Potrocs

That is precisely what Bruce Kelly relies on for his continuing fraud. You sir, participate. In that particular regard you suck.

Thenyoushould reallydislikethat HPR magazine is a captive franchiseof Bruce Kelly yet fails to perform as agreed, year after year, consistently.

Based on the outcome of your prior "hope", I have little faith.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

this statement doesn't make sense. If, unlike BK, Pat participates in ways that are hopeful, how can you justify this sentiment. Or was it a typo?

- iz

Reply to
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed

Gee Jerry, thanks for the Christmas greetings and the reality check. My wife Retta also read your Xmas greeting, but elects to extend to you a Merry Christmas, with the hopes that your lack of faith be replaced by good cheer, as she truly believes that there is good in everyone. A belief that I struggle with every time every time I post something on your list serv, RMR. However, since it is the season to reflect on our many blessings, I thank my lucky stars that I am married to my bride, a very smart lady I have had the pleasure to call my wife for over 22 years. Besides being a pharmacist completing her PHD, she also has the ability to calm me and my nasty Polish temper down when someone insults me, telling me to not lower myself to their level of rage and hate. So as a result, my Christmas wish for you Jerry is that you find a good woman who can do the same for you. Merry Christmas Jerry

Pat G

PS Retta's single friends are off limits to you, as they prefer men who are "potty mouth trained". And from what they have seen on your RMR, your litter box is full. My suggestion is that you reboot, defrag, and reformat your hard drive. And don't forget to leave the toilet seat down. Just trying to help ya out;-). Best wishes my rocket brother.

Reply to
Potrocs

And this relates to the particular topic (which you snipped and ignored) of HPR magazine,how?

And posting my position on HPR magazine (on the internet, on Usenet,in a thread on the subject) is I guess interpreted as a personal attack on you by both you and your wife? Hmmm.

Very sidebar reduced and couched Merry Christmas to you too, with all of the above reservations noted.

When I say Merry Christmas, it is not restricted, modified, etc. It is unilateral and total.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO PAT AND RETTA

Jerry

Reread the original post I made and reboot yourself sir. Gee I wonderhow feuds get started? I have never asked someone to not attend a launch of mine, can you say the same? NO.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

If he knows a magazine will be crappy (quality, timelimess, accuracy) and subscribes he is merely partly stupid.

If he does it over and over as he said, he is marginally or substantially more stupid.

If however he shovels the money in to the bank account of the guy not delivering AFTER several demands have gone unanswered and complied with, that is as stated above.

Pat may be the newest member of the TRA BOD and one with the least blood on his hands, but the BOD did give BK an ultimatum he failed to honor and the reply? We will still give you all the money, just call it something different. Please keep the magazine.

Please tell me how that is NOT a breach of fiducuiary duty.

And please tell me how it involves your wife? See below:

Gee Jerry, thanks for the Christmas greetings and the reality check. My wife Retta also read your Xmas greeting, but elects to extend to you a Merry Christmas, with the hopes that your lack of faith be replaced by good cheer, as she truly believes that there is good in everyone. A belief that I struggle with every time every time I post something on your list serv, RMR. However, since it is the season to reflect on our many blessings, I thank my lucky stars that I am married to my bride, a very smart lady I have had the pleasure to call my wife for over 22 years. Besides being a pharmacist completing her PHD, she also has the ability to calm me and my nasty Polish temper down when someone insults me, telling me to not lower myself to their level of rage and hate. So as a result, my Christmas wish for you Jerry is that you find a good woman who can do the same for you. Merry Christmas Jerry

Pat G

PS Retta's single friends are off limits to you, as they prefer men who are "potty mouth trained". And from what they have seen on your RMR, your litter box is full. My suggestion is that you reboot, defrag, and reformat your hard drive. And don't forget to leave the toilet seat down. Just trying to help ya out;-). Best wishes my rocket brother.

Both posts deleted what Pat originally said leading to the post I made.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Jerry's point is that BK keeps promising to do the right thing. Every time he does, many believe him because he has come clean & said he'll fix whatever it is that they're complaining about. I fell for that a few years ago. Now I know better. Like Pat & many others, I have hoped HPR would be restored to what it once was but, now I have to agree with Jerry in saying that BK is playing everyone for suckers.

My recommendation is to not subscribe to HPR.

BTW Jerry, HPR belongs to BK, not TRA so get over it.

Pat - I think you agree with me but, I'll say it anyway. HPR & BK need to be totally separated from TRA. As long as people are send money for HPR subscriptions to TRA, TRA is (as Jerry would say) part of the HPR conspiracy.

Phil Stein

Phil Stein

Reply to
Phil Stein

Iz, This is a-typical of Jerry, i.e.., gets mad-- gets glad--gets mad. He then repeats the cycle over and over and over and over, etc. I hate to hit the send button on this post, but what the hell....

Happy holidays Iz Fred

Reply to
W. E. Fred Wallace

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