Re: Commercial motor manufacturing

Jerry, you keep quoting Rick Dickinson's interpretation of the regs, and citing your own interpretation, but so far you've failed to show that the ATF agrees with any of it. We can sit here all year giving our own interpretations of the regs and none of it means squat. It's all just opinion. The only interpretations that count are the ATF's and the court's -- and so far the court hasn't changed the ATF's policies.

Wishing it were so isn't going to make it happen. Pretending the ATF agrees with your interpretation won't make it happen either.

Lookie.

Fred Wallace saying he has chatted with PAD manufacturers holds exactly as little weight.

But consider this.

I cite the LAW, the regulations and the letters ATF themselves have written in support of same. The NAR/TRA lawsuit is centrally based on my claim.

I have proven in practice my claim is true. Had TRA not decertified my motors this condition would still exist.

I lived the lifestyle in hard reality.

When I see someone question my posting of Federal Codes of Federal Regulation I think, what are these people, morons??

And there is VERY good reason for this sentiment. Those Codes of Federal Regulation are the very "rules" we operate on. LIKE IT OR NOT, UNDERSTAND IT OR NOT.

That is why it was worth $300,000 to sue the ATF over it.

The EXISTING law is in our favor. If we fail to use it, we WILL lose it. [Earth to rocketeers, please come in . . . ] I can certify that based on past experiences with regulators. I have only been doing this 35+ years.

Jerry

My name is Mark... and I stand by that statement.

This explains Tripoli! "These are not the conclusions of the Roger's Commission; nor does it explain the termination of the careers of those directly responsible for pushing the contractor to agree to a launch despite that contractor's strong objections.

This business of "creeping acceptance of deviance" is a very major problem: the common tendency (demonstrated above) for technical people to insist upon a technical failure when the issue is managerial is a deep flaw both in the individual and in the technical organizations that allow it."

"I've been doing it "Jerry's Way" since I became involved in rocketry. Guess what? The BATF really doesn't care.

If you are frightened of your government because you like to play with toy rocket motors I suggest you take up stamp collecting.

What's it like to live in fear?"

- Jim Rutkowski, Executive Chef,

There is a big difference between what I quote and the BS you have, for many years, spread: You are a DOT certified liar and I am not. The DOT assessment validates the rejection you have experienced from TRA and NAR, in regards to the status of you as a motor vender/manufacture, or whatever you claimed to be.

No you don't. You interpit the law as jerry "BIG FINE" irvine wants it to be. What NAR and TRA did, in regards to the lawsuit, had nothing to do with you, you were not consulted on the matter, and your posission was not given consideration.

No you haven't..

More BS or possibly your version of a wet dream..

To the tune of $40 gran; how lucky can you get??? Is there more to come??

Look in the mirror.

So you think it was a good idea now??

DOT is and example of your experience with regulators. Is there others?? Do you or will you soon have additional information to share with the group??

Fred

We are discussing ATF and Fred Wallace is fixated on DOT he personally effected.

Jerry

He cannot win a debate if on-topic.

[whether] "Mr. Irvine has complied with the instructions provided him, with no response from your office unless he has taken liberties with the truth, there are problems he has failed to disclose, resulting in a delay in the response from you or your office, and or both."

- W.E. "Fred" Wallace, MDRA 6-26-01 letter to DOT

Well excuse me, I thought the two went hand in hand..

The $40 gran assessment validated my concern, didn't it..(;-) Looks like it was "and or both".. Do you or will you soon have additional information to share with the group??

Fred

Obvious confusion of ATF and DOT. Totally orthagonal.

Blah, blah, blah.

Obvious confusion of ATF and DOT. Totally orthagonal.

Jerry

You haven't even done that! You haven't talked to any PAD manufacturers, you've just quoted the regs and some rocketeer's interpretation of them.

All of which are irrelevant, since current ATF policy doesn't follow the law, the regs, or their own past policies.

I don't question your posting of the regs, nor your interpretation of them. I'm simply pointing out that the ATF does not agree with either of us.

Yes, the law is in our favor. Current ATF policy is not in our favor, and until we force them to change it, we are stuck with it. "Like it or not".

The only evidence we have of your past experience with regulators is that $40k DOT fine, the result of DOT disagreeing with your interpretation of DOT regs. You haven't given us any evidence that ATF agrees with your interpretation of ATF regs. Believe me, I would love for you to produce such evidence, but so far you have not.

I wasn't fined, was I? Are you ready for round two, or has it already started?? Hmmm.

Fred

Ok Jerry. If you are serious make some motors & send them to me.

Since Jerry is going to prove that he lives the life, he's going to start making & shipping motors.

If Jerry is wrong, it should start very soon.

He will not make motors and ship them to us, he is afraid of me. (:-)

Fred

He probably thinks you would "except" them... that is where you say you want them until you get some, and then after you "accept" them, you turn around and find some reason to take "exception".

It sounds like this is a credible expectation, based on what's been said of your history in such matters...

-dave w

What the heck are you babbling about?

If "BIG FINE" is legal, he has nothing to worry about. Oh, but that's right; "BIG FINE" is not legal, never has been, and never will be. Word has it, he is encumbered, what ever that means.

Fred

But he says he lives the life. Don't tell me he could be taking liberties with the truth (again)

I would be willing to pay a netural third party for them up front.

Notice living the ATF lifestyle (the only one I advocate despite misstatements of critics about DOT) does not result in ATF problems, but TRA problems.

Comments varing from my words are trolls.

Jerry

Don't expect him to change. He talks the talk, but will not walk the walk. Jerry really is his own weakest link.

Fred; just trolling for jerry "BIG FINE" irvine speak..:-)

How can you claim to be living the ATF lifestyle when you are not manufacturing motors? Come on - make some motors & send them so we all believe you.