Return to Apollo?

Access to space will never be cheap, whatever the power source, as long as armies of technicians are involved in a typical launch.

Now, how do we get reliable operation without that army?

There was concern about OTRAG being diverted as a missle system given the intended launch site.

Sigh...I'd run upstairs right now and look under my bed, but I can't. It's a a water bed supported by a box structure that has been sealed since the summer of

When we replace the bed, I'll let everyone know if I find a full set of Saturn V blueprints.

By the way, rocketeers are welcome to stop by to use my archives in Ann Arbor. I've got 20 linear shelf feet of 3-ring binders full of useless crap and occasional gems.

Peter Alway

Saturn Press PO Box 3709 Ann Arbor, MI 48106-3709

The real crux of the problem is propellants with not enough energy and momentum to get large payload fractions into orbit. All chemical propellants fall into this category, its just that some are worse than others. With single stage to orbit you have hauled the whole vehicle up with you as "payload". Given the tendency for a vehicle to gain weight as design & production progresses, and given the simplifications made in the initial theoretical analyses and preliminary designs slanted toward "happy" answers, it is unlikely that you could actually get a cost-effective SSTO vehicle to deliver a useful payload. Even suborbital ICBM's use several stages because it keeps the gross liftoff weight down, and you usually end up buying aerospace systems by the pound at liftoff.

Brad Hitch

I believe you are correct. Currently it takes a huge amount of propellent mass to put a tiny payload into space. I'm no expert but it seems to me that "sci-fi" style SSTO flight will never be possible unless some dramatic new energy source and/or propulsion method is discovered.

On the other hand, pulse detonation techonology looks promising. It could (perhaps) be used to fly a vehicle to the edge of space using external air, then switch to onboard oxygen.

Anti-matter and Dilithium is all you need. ;-)

Joe Michel NAR# 82797

Harry Stine didn't think so...in "Halfway to Anywhere," a book he wrote about

That works too - it has the effect of lowering the required mass fraction because you get as much oxidizer as possible from the atmosphere instead of having to haul it off the ground.

On 12 Sep 2003 04:24:02 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote:

SSTO's are very marginal (e.g. will have very low robustness and safety margins, etc,), and have very low payload mass fractions. To launch the heavy payloads that the current market wants, requires a HUGE SSTO vehicle(s). This requires enormous facilities to build and operate. These facilities, vehicles, and infrastructure must be build and paid for before revenue is generated by putting payloads in orbit. Naturally these up front expenses will be financed by borrowing money at market rates (or from investors who also demand a similar return on their investment). You might price your launch services to pay off the debt in ten years. However, your required launch price will be higher than competing launch services from Ariane, Long March, Zenit, H@, Delta, and probably every other launch vehicle in the world. So will not be able to get the customers and launch rate that you need to ever break even. The best that you can hope to do is launch a few payloads for a special investor/anchor customer like Uncle Sam, before you declare bankruptcy. Now, If you had a solid bankable increasing launch traffic, you naturally design your space transportation system by putting more money into infrastructure, maybe even a catapult launcher run up the side of an Equatorial mountain, and lower the incremental cost of daily flights... But the reality is that launching payload into space is not easy or cheap. The best way is to get somebody else to pay most of the up front development costs; e.g. convert a large ICBM to boost commercial payloads to LEO. Numerous technical and economic studies have been published. You just need to go to a good library and read some of them.

It is not the technology as much as the economics.

Alan

Are you saying all the blueprints are water stained? The first signal we had that led to the replacement of our old water bed was some rust stains o the sheets...

Neener! Neener! Neener! I've got more useless crap than you do!

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Neener back to you! My shelf feet are logarithmic!

David Erbas-White

There's yet another hobby for rocketeers post ATF.

Jerry

ROAD TRIP!!!

Zak, bring the porta-scanner and yer laptop

name?

The OTRAG concept could have worked if they had used good engineers and management. They just cut too many corners. But you are taking the discussion in a diferent direction. More relavent would be things like Sanger and Tskylon(sp?).

Alan

So when ATF shuts us down we can change to OTRAG making as a hobby.

Full size rockets rule alot.

Jerry

Can you say *107%* size Black Brant?

Bull!. Antimatter is just the enrgy source, and Dilithium controls the process. You need the Warp engines. But for simple trips to LEO the Transporter is unsurpassed. ;)

Alan

So hwo long will it take to look through all that stuff, and how much should I offer you for room and board?

Alan

Chickens!

Randy

Ah Ha! I knew it! I knew it!

Randy