Return to Apollo?

Others may not be aware of the propellants and not understand that the highest propellant mass fraction stages are also associated with the lowest specific impulse propellants, and vice-versa - so I provided the information. It wasn't intended as a dig. Obviously adding a payload will decrease the propellant mass fraction some more. Actually, I thought the SII-C (which also burned LH2/LOX) had a better propellant mass fraction than the SIII since it was the last design to come together and therefore became the focal point for savings needed to offset weight growth in the rest of the stack.

A SSTO airbreathing vehicle was proposed in ~1984 and it absorbed hundreds of millions of dollars before the government finally figured out that the initial theoretical analyses done by Tony DuPont were way too simplistic and optimistic. In my humble opinion a purely rocket-based system has a better chance of working, but I think it still wouldn't be able to economically compete with expendable multi-stage systems if it had to use the same chemical propellants.

For horizontal take-off & aircraft-like operations, gross take-off weights above about 1,000,000 pounds will significantly increase costs and severely restrict the number of places such a vehicle could be operated. Landing gear weight gets really big. The thrust structure and engine weight in general increase pretty much with the gross vehicle takeoff weight for a given acceleration capability, whether launched vertically or horizontally. Horizontal launch means you need wings, which can't be just any shape, are draggy, and are volumetrically inefficient. The shuttle would be able to haul alot more payload if it didn't have those big wings, which IIRC were originally driven by an Air Force cross-range requirement. They also reduce landing speed, though - which is pretty high already. Weight savings on the propellant tankage certainly helps, but the tank itself isn't necessarily the biggest hitter.

Electric and hybrid cars can and do, but that really isn't the same kind of animal. I can't store the braking energy on a rocket. If I had power to burn, though, I could dispense with the thermal protection system - not that it's very heavy, but failures can obviously be dangerous. Restricting the locations and types of possible catastrophic failures improves overall system reliability and lowers inspection/maintenance costs. We don't have to pore over the skin of an aircraft after each flight, we just inspect engine hot sections once in a while.

Bruce Dunn. Nice guy. I wonder what his neighbors think of his experiments.

I've already located a supply of cantaffordmium, if you are interested. :)

Hypocritical? I'm just publicly examining the extremes to show where that puts us on the map of the possible. The Deep Space 1 xenon ion engine demonstrated 3100 seconds of specific impulse and NASA talks of values up to 13,000 seconds with newer electric engines (very low thrust, though). 2650 seconds isn't a laughably high number, though it is certainly a big challenge for a launch vehicle. At least the answer doesn't violate known physics. If we just need 10,000 m/s delta-v to get to orbit with a little maneuver reserve the required Isp falls to about 1500 seconds with a 50% initial vehicle fuel mass fraction. NERVA demonstrated about 900 seconds, Timberwind would have been better (who knows how much) - maybe a LOX-augmented Timberwind engine could do it. Now *there's* an EX project for you - at least you wouldn't be working with materials that are on the ATF Explosives List :) (or is hydrogen on their List? For that matter, are nuclear explosives like plutonium or tritium on their List? If not, why not? They're set off by detonators, right? Enquiring minds want to know!). It would probably still be thrust/weight challenged, though.

Reply to
Brad Hitch
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turbosnip

If you simply assumi it NEVER lands with the rocket still in place it is not as the reason they call them langing gear is the major stresses are on landing not takeoff.

If the Voyager (round the world on a tank of gas) were to be forced to land early, they would have to dump fuel to not break guaranteed on landing.

I almost want to cite the Thunderbirds (the puppet show), but I will try to control myself.

I suggest you hire Rutan to make a 10x scale-up of his plane and I will stick a chemical rocket under it for you and we will start building our own space station ans satellite constellations.

I've got plenty of AP.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

George is right.

Jerry said so.

Hey George, without getting on your case too much this last paragraph had alot of anomolous characters in it. What are you doing, posting word files? Save as text first?

Armadillo Aerospace had the first X-prixe hardware to leave the ground.

See my related post on a 10x airplane.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

I have to agree it was an Orbit.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

turbosnip

Considering that OSP is a POLITICAL solution to a POLITICAL problem, that is likely to be superceeded by yet another POLITICAL solution to a POLITICAL problem, it seems that the only alternative to this unchangable fact of life, funded by confiscatory taxation, is to simply build a better mousetrap.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

turbosnip

Testbeds have been flown on supersonic aircraft and have been launched from hypersonic rockets, so the principal of an aerospike is being investigated sans the boondoggle of the old program.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

And here I thought I typed "hypothetical".

I drug out my copy of a 1975 issue of Analog magazine that has an article on nuclear rockets.

NERVA had a decent ISP (~900) but the mass flow rates were too low and pressure losses were too high to allow a sufficiently high thrust to weight ratio to use for ground to orbit. Heck. It could barely lift itself, so long as it didn't have to carry anything with it. Like propellant tanks.

DUMBO on the other hand was an F-1 class engine. Isp still less than

1,000 though. Never tested beyond the fuel element stage.

All of the ion engines while they have high Isp's have laughably low thrusts.

There is a class of rocket engines that have huge Isp's (tens of thousands) and thrust levels in one package. But they have not been built because of the perceived radiation hazards: Orion (nuclear pulse) and the gas core nuclear rockets.

But there is no sense in waiting for the perfect rocket motor.

Reply to
David Schultz

snipped-for-privacy@tda.com (Brad Hitch) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com:

I think he meant hypothetical...

len.

Reply to
Leonard Fehskens

David Schultz wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net:

Is another alternative to "push" a vehicle into orbit with a great big laser? Anybody "done the numbers"?

len.

Reply to
Leonard Fehskens

Alan Jones wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Hence the interest in elevators.

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len.

Reply to
Leonard Fehskens

No but they have raised and spent $500m several times so far "trying".

No hardware of course!

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

This has one of the same problems as chemical propulsion. The push plate is what is ionized and the departure of the particles produces the thrust. So you still have a massflow issue and it is not at all clear that laser propulsion is high ISP.

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

I did some figures pushing a lightweight mesh into orbit with microwaves. Photon thrust just isn't viable here. beamed energy is more promising, but not entirely solved.

Reply to
Penguinista

Henry Spencer knows...

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Reply to
Brad Hitch

Does he know everything? :)

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

Neato! Answered a lot of my questions too Brad, thanks!

tah

Reply to
hiltyt

thank you for this information. I've received a number of references. This has been a lingering question and i'm thrilled to have an answer :)

jim

Brad Hitch wrote:

Reply to
Jim Flis

Me either.

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

I think I saw that ion sci.space.tech as a matter of fact :)

Jerry

Reply to
Jerry Irvine

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