We finally joined NAR

I will be renewing two members for two years each especially at the higher prices. Support the NAR. Do NOT tolerate bad policies!

Jerry

Randy,

I don't believe that any of us would challenge the merits of NAR [or TRA] in principal

what I and others have issues with are specific policies TRA and NAR became committed to by specific individuals on their respective boards

so when we say "TRA/NAR obstructed the legislative effort", or "TRA/NAR enforces regulations they themselves represent are inapplicable to rocket motors", what we mean is the leadership responsible for those policies

I am a member in good standing of both TRA and NAR, in part because my membership helps finance site insurance for local clubs around the country. I have great admiration and respect (and often downright awe) for the abilities and accomplishments of rocketeers (who more often than not are also members).

but I believe that we have been led down the garden path WRT their 'good intentions' on our behalf, when the evidence is that they consistently act as regulatory surrogates rather than rocketry advocacies, they have in the past represented that they actually performed services to rocketry that they in fact did not (e.g.; motor certs), and they have acted suspiciously regarding support of a free market for rocketry.

their conduct during the SJC/DoJ debacle was the last straw.

I am determined to expose the conditions that allowed for such inept handling of our affairs in an effort to forestall future damage done ostensibly in our 'best interests'

- iz

You go girl.

ROF!

- iz

Translated from Iz-talk:

"Part One of my plan to rule rocketry is to convince everyone that they are dim-witted saps who blindly elected Evil Vermin Scum as their leaders."

"They pissed off an anal-retentive control freak over a decade ago, and I've bought into the guy's red hot vendetta. Oh, and they won't let Jerry do whatever the hell he wants, any way he wants."

"I need a scapegoat for the failure of Wickman's senate bill."

"I'm determined to ignore reality and history, while constantly denigrating the efforts of the dedicated hobbyist-volunteers who have worked hard on our behalf for so many years. If I keep this up long enough, maybe eventually you dumb clucks will realize that I alone know what's best for you and you'll finally start obeying my every command. (But don't expect me to actually run for BOD or anything, that might involve real work.)"

Maybe I can help you. At

A mirror might be a useful tool in your determined effort to expose the conditions you speak of.

Just trying to help.

nice wit, Gary :)

I responded privately

Gary wrote:

yes, the DoJ's representations to the SJC that hobby rockets could knock down planes flying at 30,000 feet and destroy tanks at 5 miles was not the kind of fanciful lies we expected

the operative word being "seems"

with more cooperation from the TRA/NAR machine we would have made the issues more visible, and brought some scrutiny to bear on the disinformation

it is true that for the most part politicians posture for the press. But with the enough facts properly presented I don't think many Senators would care to be associated with outright lies like those we saw in the SJC

you know, Bunny said he offered to help JW, but was rebuffed on several occassions. Let me tell you what really happened.

John launched the legislative initiative with Senator Enzi. He asked both TRA and NAR to assist WRT communications to the memberships so that strategically timed letter/fax/phone campaigns would be well coordinated. This is what was needed.

instead the TRA/NAR machine said they had their own political consultant and their position was that they and John Kyte determine what actions and timing were needed. This despite the fact that (a) Senator Enzi and staff were already productively strategizing with JW as to the most effective courses to take, and (b) TRA/NARs own agendas could very possibly be in conflict should considered actions be seen to have implications for the lawsuit or for their control over commercial rocketry.

John said, 'thanks, but no thanks'. This is the 'rebuff' than Bunny described.

JW then appealed to members directly

as the history shows, TRA/NAR second-guessed every call for action that JW made, and repeatedly (via ROL and elsewhere) directed the members to disregard JW's announcements of campaigns. Their excuse was that they were "confirming with Senator Enzi's office", when it should be clear to any 12 year old that a Senator is constrained in what he can 'officially and publically' direct regarding lobbying activity. JW and Sen. Enzi communications exist at a level that could never be achieved by John Kyte, but TRA/NAR insisted that every action be explicitly recommended by Sen. Enzi's office.

if you want to talk about egos, talk about Mark Bundick, Dick Embry, and John Kyte

since the materials used in JW's amateur rocketry activities did not include APCP at all, the impact of APCP on the explosives list had no bearing on his business. It was JW's genuine concern for the state of rocketry in general that moved him to step up and address the issues looming on the horizon head-on.

the naysayers have NO CLUE what a sincere and generous person JW is

use your brain and THINK

read S.724 as introduced and see if you can grasp what he and Sen. Enzi were fighting for

it is bigger than hobby rocketry as you know it, MUCH bigger

personally I think the obstructionists should be ashamed to posture themselves as advocates of rocketry after the damage they have done. At a minimum, they should get the hell out of the way, and let the people who are committed to its future do what it takes to get the job done

I know that JW shares my sentiment when I say "thank you!" to the many hundreds of individuals who used their own judgement and took quick and decisive actions when needed throughout the various campaigns. It is knowing that you are out there, sharing the vision and the commitment that encourages us when the odds seem insurmountable

no one has given up the fight on this end, and I suspect that neither have most of you

may God bless our efforts to preserve our freedoms, and strengthen us against those who strive to destroy our way of life - here, as well as abroad.

amen! amen! amen!

- iz

Gee, you must have really hit a nerve there Gary.

That's NOT what he was saying at the time. He was convinced that ANCP would be next on the ATF's agenda, if it wasn't already on it.

Oh, and if it wasn't going to affect him directly, and he was supposedly only doing it for our benefit, why would he be so adamant about refusing any direction from us??

I'm sure he is. Unfortunately he also seems to have an inability to listen to others, and would rather blame a scapegoat than admit that it failed and move on to the next battle.

None of which matters one whit. What matters is whether or not the bill ever had a chance of getting passed into law. It did not. I don't blame John Wickman for that. I do blame him for his divisive, destructive scapegoating. And I blame you for turning it into the neverending story -- at least Wickman eventually shut up.

I received the PDF file.

Welcome to the world of Federal Law. (I am not an expert, just a veteran gun rights advocate and volunteer. Been here before.)

Its a sad comment on the System, but this naivete is precisely the problem.

Iz... in this context, Mark posts "from-the-horses-mouth", authoritative information, and he does so in a public forum. He is the official President of a national rocketry organization. In the absence of any other considerations, this level of information must be granted considerable relative weight.

Quite frankly, I am not interested in your opinion of events. Your self-professed "position" at ARSA is that of a "communications facilitator" and you have provided no information as to your official involvement in the legislative effort itself nor the actual level of access you had to meetings, discussions, etc, etc, etc, There is no basis from which I can assign a relative weight to your information, nor the level of authority with which you speak on these issues. Actually, there's no publicly available way I know of to verify an official ARSA "position" even exists at all. If you were involved on a private, non-ARSA level, you have still not provided any information in what capacity you acted.

Compared to Mark's input, your's is simply heresay. And this is not personal, Iz, it is a simple matter of credibility. As it stands, Bunny wins the credibility race hands down. If JW would like to personally post in this forum, I would grant that information equal weight to Bunny's. If you can show that you were a principal in the effort, I would be inclined to allow more weight to your information, as well.

I don't. You brought it up, not me.

Actually, I have no doubt whatsoever that Mr. Wickman has a sincere desire to promote rocketry. I've posted several times that I admire his technological competence and his AM/EX contributions.

But, as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And you are desperately trying to shift the blame for those results onto someone else. Its not the intent of 724, Iz, its the method and timing and lack of foresight in proposing it that I have a problem with. And the devisive way you pursue your so-called solutions on this forum. You, sir, are a detriment to the hobby at this point in time. And we have more than enough detriment to go around right now. You are paving another road.

Take your own advice on the line below. You don't have to try and make others look bad to make yourself look good. In my opinion, its a self-defeating tactic anyways, common use notwithstanding.

Ummmmm....ahhhhhh....eeeeeeeee....ahhhhh. Okay. I did.

It is? How big is it? How do you know how I perceive hobby rocketry?

Do a Google on my sig. It was carefully chosen to express a particular viewpoint and attitude. See if you can determine my opinion of the actual exemption legislation itself.

Well said. Now, use that mirror to identify the obstructionists.

we will have to agree to disagree, Gary

BTW, I enjoyed your piece "My dialog with the AAG's letter" at

- iz

Well said, Gary!

Ray's endorsement .. the kiss of death

- iz

This position puts fear in my bones. It is clear that even at the level of the rocketry industry itself the position of power greatly exceeds the position of truth or fact, and power covers fact.

We are doomed.

And we have already seen the results.

ATF

NFPA

Legislation

Lobbying

Membership

Product access

ALL on negative trends. ALL contributing to NAR power (overan ever decreasong zealot base) and to loss of rocketry freedoms and participation.

We are doomed.

All proposals to correct it are DOA at both NAR and TRA. I know. I have tried. And I am the guy who successfully got the ball rolling on LMR and HPR.

Jerry

At what point is truth telling NOT mere blame shifting?

Came along of their own accord and "decided" APCP was an explosive.

Legalized an otherwise illegal activity in the majority of States.

At first, this avenue was not promoted by the NAR. Only when the gun (ARSA) went off half cocked did the NAR join the battle to try to throw some weight to an ill founded effort.

Testing the waters before jumping in.

(whisper) Jerry's a member. Membership allows authorities a feeling of comfort when seeing rockets take off from school fields and public parks.

All the motors you'd want (except for a minor shortage caused by a manufacturing facility fire) from a variety of manufacturers. What's your point?

steve

Their own law saves us fromthem.

How matters. The EXEMPTION that was replaced by REGULATION means your premise is and was always false. It was legal before.

Rewriting history.

Then don't jump! The water is COLD!

Membership has DECLIINED.

Access to HPR is greatly more difficult than even 5 short years ago.

Except erases everything that preceeds it.

No longer 20 suppliers to choose from.

Frankly, Jerry, my attitude is far different.

The hobby definitely needs people like Mark Bundick, and organizations like NAR. I have never been anything but impressed with how Bunny has handled the crap that is thrown his way, from this forum and others, and the attacks that have been made on him, when he is part of a VOLUNTEER effort/organization. There is no doubt, whatsover, in my mind that Bunny has handled his position as NAR President better than 99.9% of the population could have done. He has my thanks.

The hobby also needs people like Jerry Irvine, as the maverick and gadfly that can goad both individuals and organizations into different courses of action, while also having accomplishments on his own. I've never dealt with you as a customer, so I can't respond to either the pluses or minuses of those who've discussed their own dealings with you, but you are obviously heavily involved in rocketery, have been for decades, want it to continue, and sometimes have some unorthodox methods of 'pushing the envelope'. But, the hobby simply couldn't succeed without people like you as well.

The hobby also needs people like Iz, whether what he's saying is correct, or not. He takes the time to do his research, he posts his commentaries out there for the world to see, and you can make your judgements based on the merits. The same with Ray--besides the fact that the hobby needs the 'lone ranger' type of rocketeer, his photos are fantastic, and the level of skill he demonstrates in making those photos is self-evident. I don't agree with the vast majority of his comments in regards to TRA, but that in itself provides the needed counterpoint to OTHER individuals who seek information and want to make their own decisions.

The hobby is going through some growth right now, but I don't mean in numbers. We're having to become more sophisticated in how the world perceives our hobby, and a lot of the decisions made need to take that into account. I don't like it, but it IS reality. I hope that ultimately the hobby becomes stronger from it, and I believe that we can. I see some positive changes in TRA, with the elections to the Board last time, and I hope that trend continues. I see TRA becoming a little more responsible about the HPR magazine issue, and hope that trend continues as well.

Bottom line: the 'players' are needed, and help to keep the hobby 'alive' instead of 'stagnant'...

David Erbas-White

Fine.

What course of action do you SPECIFICALLY propose?