We finally joined NAR

Yep....and carries more weight.

Kooch

Obviously you were not there or you would have KNOWN my claim to be a FACT.

Hey, you took the thread back on topic! ; )

We were hoping to get there next week but it looks like both of our military kids (who'll soon be deploying again to chase Osama and the remanats of Saddam) will be coming home for their mom's birthday (7th) so I will probably have to wait until the March launch but we're defiantely down for that one.

Randy

John,

we just this weekend uploaded a *new* FREE paper rocket called the "CAUTION! Rocket Launch In Progress!"

Check it out at:

jim

John Ste> Yep, I finished my Deuce's Wild last week and I'm waiting for the weather to

Okay, last comment.

Its just that when I was laid off from Lucent my launch rates and participation went way down for some time. I had no idea the telecom bust was actually Bunny's fault.

I had a heck of time getting permission from the local Park Commissioner to stage school launches in the parks (NO modrocs allowed in the parks here). Can't fly in the open space areas around here, either.

The school district I work for does things by exception (for insurance reasons) and any rocket related activities require single-use paperwork. Non-rocketeer teachers are dissuaded; its a PITA to get permissions.

Several students I've had can't build rockets at home; their parents think it is "too dangerous" and its "inappropriate for schools to teach about rockets". (I'm dead serious)

IIRC, wasn't there a shipping issue lately with rocket motors because of the HSA?

Etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, Jerry, all the problems with rocketry, direct and indirect, are intentionally caused by the NAR and the TRA in their conspiracy to keep you out. They have control over not only federal law, but state, local, and city governments as well. They take advantage of insurance issues to purposely impose hardship on rocketeers in order to maintain power and keep Jerry out. They WANT BATFE to regulate us. No other factors at all, not even the economy nor terrorist concerns, have any impact whatsoever on rocketry.

You want to make a real contribution, Jerry? Get over yourself. Deal with reality, not what you want reality to be. Resting on your laurels just lets the rest of the world pass you by.

You have bitched, ranted, raved, and promoted your case and solutions for DECADES. Where has it gotten you? How long are you going to keep beating your head against the wall?

I am certain you are aware of the position you could be in right now, if you had certified motors. Was it worth it, Jerry? To you and rocketry? What might you have accomplished from the "inside", even it wasn't the perfect place you envision, over the last 20 years? A litte JI here, a little JI there; you could have influenced, if not changed, the things you bitch about now.

Bottom line: you have failed in your quest so far. That should tell you something, but you appear oblivious to it. "Earth-to-Jerry; Its been many years with no progress. Current methods proved ineffective. Implement Plan B."

I hope you do have a Plan B, Jerry. I really do.

It's not and you are only one guy.

Those sorts of rules are COMMON in CA. There are ways around it. Different cities. Or do the right thing and make a presentation to the city council to chgange the ordinance.

Sounds like a PR problem. I have addressed that and more to the point I have walked the walk in my area and over a decade ago now, nationwide.

It's over. You are LOOKING for excuses.

Yep.

Nope. They have control over how they deal with them with their members and more importantly in NFPA codes.

Yep.

Not exactly. They do NOT use the exemptions that are IN PLACE NOW and actually affirtmatively PREVENT vendors willing to use them from doing so by INTERNAL POLICY.

Do you deny that?

I agree.

Mucho ranting and sniping and crapola ignored.

The industry conditions are defined by the industry.

Define better conditions?

Just Jerry

FREE is good. Just ask the FREE Frenzy Fad participants!

I was at most of the 'fest launches during that period, and ALL of the Summerfest launches. None of them had anywhere near that many people. I also have an aerial photo of the site taken during Summerfest '92, and have counted the number of vehicles there, and it isn't nearly enough to support the claim of 3000 people. This launch was in my estimation typical of the Summerfest launches of that period.

I also have an aerial photo of the 2001 LDRS which shows FAR more vehicles at the site.

The 'fest launches were a great achievement and contributed mightily to the hobby. Your efforts in that regard are worthy of respect on their own merits. Why can't you just be proud of your real achievements without have to exaggerate and falsify them? Doing so only destroys your credibility and demeans your real accomplishments.

Jerry, this was in reference to your comment about flyer certifications. Those have NOT changed in the past five years, nor are they difficult to accomplish.

Still do.

Pretty much true, but CA wasn't always so restrictive. CA didn't begin requiring CSFM approval of motors until about 1992.

Wrong again.

stop there.

But only slighly. Figures from the NAR Chicago meeting Board packet:

Year JR LR SR LIFE TOTAL

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Mark B. Bundick mbundick - at - earthlink - dot - net NAR President www - dot - nar - dot - org

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - anon.

(5171-4737)/4737= 9.16%

The certified motor list went DOWN by approximately 1/4-1/2 page.

I would personally like to DOUBLE it and add 2000 members. May I?

So which are you? Ignorant or a liar?

hosting a

styles. So I

population

Continent?

Hey, wait! That's a dispute about a fact! We finally might be able to settle something!

I did a quick search of reputable sources, and the answer is listed below, along with the source (all good scholars cites their sources!)

World's largest cities:

or maybe it's

Unless it's:

or

Darn. None of them are in the U.S. OK, perhaps "largest population center on the planet" meant world's largest metropolitan areas?

or

or perhaps

or is it

Finally, a U.S. city makes the top of the charts! New York it is! So, when was there a big rocket launch with a 100,000+ foot waiver in New York???

:-)

--tc

Are you currently selling EX motors at independent launches without an LEMP?

I've heard too many horror stories about you Jerry.

Mark,

The data is interesting. Thanks for posting it.

It does seem that the total membership has declined by 8% from the local peak in 1999. But the interesting part is that the Junior membership has declined by 65% over the last 10 years, steadily losing 150 junior members every year. This is a group that should not be affected by the AT fire since it is an Estes group. This shows that NAR is fairly irrelevant to the hobby or that the hobby really is dieing. The adult membership had a large jump in 1999. Can this be attributable to NAR starting to shift focus on HPR?, ie, when did NAR really start doing HPR certifications? (I have no idea).

But what I really want to hear is an answer to Jerry Irving's question. I do not know anything about the personal animosity between you two, and I could care less, but I don't understand why NAR -- the organization -- is not working hand-in-hand with Mr. Irving to get his motors certified. A sincere negotiation between NAR and USR should be _actively_ pursued by NAR to make this happen. This negotiation will require compromise on both sides over whatever the "issues" are. But, if NAR wants to help the hobby, it seems only logical that the NAR would be doing this even if you personally hate Mr. Irving.

So why not?

Thanks,

Ferrell "I just want more motors" Wheeler

"Population center" is defined as a contiguous developed area.

As such it includes all of Los Angeles County (many cities), most of Ventura County, all of Orange county, the western portions of San Bernardino and Riverside counties and the southern portion of Kern county.

I win.

Furthermore, if I can convert a mere 2000 of those people into NAR members would it not be a very low cost and risk to NAR to eliminate ANY ATF permit language in any o policy just to lay the gauntlet for Jerry Irvine?

What if I were somewhat above useless and converted more than 2000?

Just Jerry