Captured B-17's. Any Major Conversions by the Germans?

Not sure on the F, but Strangers in a Strange Land mentions that at least one G model had the ball turret removed to facilitate dropping parachutists (one of KG 200's missions).

About the only thing that my Profile book shows is a tarp secured over the nose because of battle damage.... That and new markings.

like the sterling?

"Matt Wiser" wrote in news:1199678995 snipped-for-privacy@sp12lax.superfeed.net:

And probably the .50's replaced by MG's because of the lack of 50 cal ammo.

They might have had a fair amount of .50 ammo from downed aircraft. This hits me as odd:

All the pics in the book showing the captured B-17s and B-24s show the .50s as being installed in the turrets. Most likely the Luftwaffe got ammo from scavenging downed aircraft. One B-24 had a radar installed so that it could track RAF bombers at night and send altitude, course, and speed info to Luftwaffe GCI controllers to vector in the night fighters.

I'm thinking that with all the bombers and fighters that went down over Germany and German-occupied territory, they probably had a pretty good supply of .50 cal for the few captured US aircraft that needed to be armed for some sort of "special" mission.

"bill.woodier" wrote in news:DrOdnUKs4dydJhXanZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

well, it's something I read in (I think) "KG200, The force with no face" which was/is supposed to be rather accurate. Dramatized, but rather accurate.

I just thought of something; with their disintegrating link feed belts, US fighters and bombers must have left a huge number of .50 caliber cartridge cases strewn across Germany, especially on the low-level strafing missions. Did the German populace gather these up so they could be melted down for their brass content, and the brass reused for German cartridge cases? What made me think of this was the use of the paper drop-tanks on allied aircraft to prevent the aluminum in the metal ones being used by the German war industry.

Pat

The captured fighters certainly were armed: Strangers in a Strange Land mentions that all the captured Allied fighters were always flown fully armed. The maintenance guys were fully trained on the aircraft, and kept them in good repair. (given there were plenty of spare parts from downed aircraft...) No doubt a lot of wrecks contributed parts, fuel, ammo, etc. to keep the captured birds flying.

Cheers all. Jim.

Jim, Here's the info of our exchange on this but I see that it has still not shown up on RMS. I have not figured out how to post there since Sympatico aligned itself with Bill Gates and MSN. I can read but not post. Are you able to post on RMS? If so, how? Feel free to post this there if you have access. Cheers, Doc

----- Original Message ----- From: snipped-for-privacy@aol.com To: snipped-for-privacy@sympatico.ca Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:15 AM Subject: Re: Captured B-17's. Any Major Conversions by the Germans?

Thanks for the plug, Doc, but the Old Man's facts are wrong--the Italian pilot spoke American English, as I had him do in RL. Caidin's book is Fying Forts, the story is true, because the Italians, when I ask for a description of medals, they also sent me a one-page article and photo of the actual P-38...a prized possession of mine. --Bob

In a message dated 1/14/2008 4:13:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, snipped-for-privacy@sympatico.ca writes: Just trying this on for size to see if it works as my ISP has changed its level of support to newsgroups and I don't know whether it will get through..

The "Old Man" wrote: Quote: I remember reading a story about this years ago. A captured P-38 was given over to an Italian fighter pilot, who used it to shadow the bomber formation and pick off stragglers. Eventually, someone either saw him in action or got a head's up over the radio from one of his victims. Anyway, a couple of Italian-Americans who spoke the language started speaking Italian over the American frequency and heard the Italian pilot holler at them to get off the frequency before they warned the Americans that he was on their tail. Then he found out that the last two or three "bombers" in the formation didn't have bombs - they had extra rounds of ammunition. Picture at least fourteen and maybe twenty .50cal machine guns filling your aircraft full of lead. One sorry pisano.... End Quote.

This is a true story. Robert Skimin has done an historical novel on this incident entitled "Renegade Lightning". Recommended reading as he adds notes connecting his yarn to the actual events and the details of the eventual fate of the two pilots involved. As mentioned before, the incident was also described in one of Caidin's books, but can't remember if it was in "Flying Fortress" or "Fork-Tailed Devil". The USAAF did become aware of the fact that a captured P-38 was being used to pick off straggling B-17s. They did set a trap for him using the YB-40s. These were B-17s not carrying bombs, but with extra turrets, guns (I believe a total of 20) and ammunition. They were intended to be escorts for the bombers and beef up the defensive firepower of the formation.

One problem was that the bombers, once they dropped their loads, became much lighter and faster than the YB-40s.

This one YB-40 was a "real" straggler and attracted the attention of the Italian P-38.

Very interesting story.

Cheers, Doc

On Jan 17, 8:36=A0pm, Jim wrote:> ****** =A0I received this by E-mail and am posting it as per the request.> I'm not up to date on this thread as my ISP only brings in a few> postings, not all. =A0I know, I know, get a decent news reader :-). =A0So> maybe this will fit in with someone's postings.> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Cheers all. =A0Jim.> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ****************************************> > Jim,>=

Here's the info of our exchange on this but I see that it has still not> shown up on RMS. I have not figured out how to post there since>

Sympatico aligned itself with Bill Gates and MSN.> I can read but not post.> Are you able to post on RMS? If so, how?> Feel free to post this there if you have access.> Cheers, Doc> > > > ----- Original Message -----> From: snipped-for-privacy@aol.com To: snipped-for-privacy@sympatico.ca Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 12:15 AM> Subject: Re: Captured B-17's. Any Major Conversions by the Germans?> > Thanks for the plug, Doc, but the Old Man's facts are wrong--the Italian> pilot spoke American English, as I had him do in RL. =A0Caidin's book is> Fying Forts, the story is true, because the Italians, when I ask for a>

description of medals, they also sent me a one-page article and photo of> the actual P-38...a prized possession of mine. =A0--Bob> > In a message dated 1/14/2008 4:13:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,>

snipped-for-privacy@sympatico.ca writes:> Just trying this on for size to see if it works as my ISP has changed its> level of support to newsgroups and I don't know whether it will get> through..> > The "Old Man" wrote:> Quote:> I remember reading a story about this years ago. A captured P-38 was> given over to an Italian fighter pilot, who used it to shadow the> bomber formation and pick off stragglers. Eventually, someone either> saw him in action or got a head's up over the radio from one of his> victims. Anyway, a couple of Italian- Americans who spoke the language> started speaking Italian over the American frequency and heard the> Italian pilot holler at them to get off the frequency before they> warned the Americans that he was on their tail. Then he found out that> the last two or three "bombers" in the formation didn't have bombs -> they had extra rounds of ammunition. Picture at least fourteen and> maybe twenty .50cal machine guns filling your aircraft full of lead.> One sorry pisano....> End Quote.> > This is a true story. Robert Skimin has done an historical novel on this> incident entitled "Renegade Lightning". Recommended reading as he adds> notes> connecting his yarn to the actual events and the details of the eventual> fate of the two pilots involved.> As mentioned before, the incident was also described in one of Caidin's>

books, but can't remember if it was in "Flying Fortress" or "Fork- Tailed> Devil".> The USAAF did become aware of the fact that a captured P-38 was being used> to pick off straggling B-17s. They did set a trap for him using the YB-40s.> These were B-17s not carrying bombs, but with extra turrets, guns (I> believe> a total of 20) and ammunition. They were intended to be escorts for the> bombers and beef up the defensive firepower of the formation.> > One problem was that the bombers, once they dropped their loads, became> much> lighter and faster than the YB-40s.> > This one YB-40 was a "real" straggler and attracted the attention of the> Italian P-38.> > Very interesting story.> > Cheers,> Doc- Hide quoted text -> > - Show quoted text -I've gotten to really like the series "Dogfight". After awhile the cg stuff starts to feel right and it can be really enjoyable.Today they had the Tuskeegee Airmen story and it had some pleasant surprises. One was seeing Chris Buckholtz doing some of the commentary. Well-versed and=A0 presented nicely. Second was the segment where they got it on with a flight of Me 262s. Three down, three probable and three damaged with their P-51Ds. That's amazing!The best part for me, though, came after the skirmish. One of the guys was seperated and saw another lone Mustang, so he caught up, only to find a captured P-51B in full German markings. He started to attack, but realized that his tanks were below half, so he quit and went hoke alone. The markings of the German-51 were perfect, taken directly from color photos and Stapfer's book, among others. Great stuff!Tom