Grumman F3F fuselage color

I believe they used a different paint (dope, lacquer, whatever) formulation for fabric surfaces than was used for metal surfaces.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

I just happened to be looking at that last night and was scratching my noggin over it, too. I thought the metal areas were to be painted light grey with all fabric areas aluminum dope. I was trying to determine approximately what the grey should be and thought that AM would get it spot on. As you say they suggest something different.

I did see a reference that suggests that at some point the Navy was overall silver/aluminum which suggests either polished bare metal (unlikely in a salt air enviroment) or an aluminum paint.

The basic answer is doped fabric is dope with aluminum powder in it and the metal surfaces are painted with a paint suitable for, well, metal surfaces. The reflective qualities simply may not be the same.

Anyone know the chronology of the changes and what the "light grey" was supposed to be, analougous to the overall light grey of '40-'41 or the bottom color on bluegrey/light grey scheme?

Frank

No bare metal. There was a period in the 20's or 30's where the metal was painted light grey but Dana Bell is the best to answer that.

Completely different paints.

The 40/41 light grey is the same as the underside color for blue/grey topsides. Not sure what exact shade the earlier light grey was.

Depends on the time period in question.

1919 - fabric covered surfaces painted aluminum enamel, all other surfaces navy gray enamel

1924 - all surfaces painted aluminum enamel except upper wing surfaces in navy yellow enamel.

1925 - same as 1924 except upper surface of wing and top of horizontal tail painted in chrome yellow

1927 - same as 1925 except metal surfaces painted in light gray instead of aluminum.

1934 - reverted to the 1925 paint scheme.

1940 - all surfaces painted glossy aircraft gray except upper wing surfaces in glossy chrome yellow

So the gray painted metal fuselage with aluminum painted fabric covered wings (with yellow wing upper surfaces) would be correct between 1927 and 1934 - and possibly sometime afterwards on the assumption that aircraft already in service would retain their previous paint schemes until scheduled for major overhaul.

Done. You're welcome.

Cheers,

Are you sure about enamel on the fabric surfaces? I've never done it on real a/c because it's my understanding enamel (or anything other than dope) won't stay, due to the fabric's constant flexing & other movements. Even today, if a fabric a/c is painted with something besides dope or other finishing product for the synthetics used today, a flx agent has to be added. Did they even have flex agents way back then?

No I'm not. It seems a bit strange to me as well but that's how it's listed in my reference ("Color Schemes and Markings U.S. Navy Aircraft

1911-1950", Bill Kilgrain)

Again, I don't know. Your comments are reasonable certainly. But that's how it was listed. Although I would note that the description of the

1924 scheme is the last time "enamel" is specifically mentioned. After that, it just references the colors without specifying the paint medium.

Cheers,

In later years, after WW2, there were other paints than dope to use on fabric, but for WW2 and earlier, dope was the thing. Dope, however, changed about the early days of WW1. I believe early on it was a shellac-like goop, but was changed to the cellulose dope many of us are familiar with.

Incidently, when covering a fabric surface, the fabric was first doped (after it was in place) with clear dope, then aluminum dope (made on site by adding aluminum powder to clear dope. The aluminum dope coating was to protect the fabric from UV damage. Then the desired color dopes were added. I wonder if the "aluminum" color on those Navy planes was just the anti-UV coating, or whether an additional coat was put on.

As I remember that aluminum dope, it was not very high gloss. My dad bought a surplus Aeronca, and recovered it. He left it in the aluminum doped UV coating. Certainly any enamel or lacquer painted metal of that post-WW2 period was shinier than the aluminum-doped fabric, which is why I asked originally. They either intentionally used a semi-matt paint, or used a paint which chalked and weathered much faster than dope.

frank wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:

I have a Squadron book Colors and Markings US Navy and USMC upt to WWII. It uses the term "enamel" for the paint.

Oddly it suggests that the enamel appreared silver on fabric and light gray on metal. The Navy then switched to light gray paint.

Frank

Ron Smith wrote in news:UdCdnYrqeL9bu9DbnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@rcn.net:

Thanks, Ron.

Frank

Bill Shatzer wrote in news:KbCdnTodAugEtNDbnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

Thanks, Frank