WWI Aircraft Builders - opinions on aircraft in movie "Flyboys"

I watched a little more of it again - one of the Red Fokker Tripes did appear a little glossier than the rest, so it may have been an effort to impart service wear and tear.

I wasn't going to get into the hokey flight dynamics - BUT...

... on second viewing I was struck by the amount of bullet damage sustained in the immediate area of the cockpit (as in just behind the pilot's upper torso) without scoring a lethal hit on the pilot. Dunno the armor specs on these old crates, but that seemed extremely unlikely not to cause injury. A case of Hollywoodn't have happened in real life?

... the smoke tracing from the rounds seemed a little overdone. Did WWI aircraft have tracer type rounds, or due to the early MG tech of the day were they decidedly non-smokeless in the powder used? Perhaps on purpose?

Apart from that, cinematically a beautiful looking WWI flick. Too much cheese in it, but that's the way they do 'em these days.

WmB

Also enjoyed the movie - only problem I had with it was when they went to so much effort individualizing the Nieuports flown by the "good guys", why did they go the cheap route & use generic all red Fokker Triplanes with no individual markings except for the head "bad guy" whose Tripe was black?? Otherwise a good movie Bob

I recall Tom Young mentioning the use of radial engines instead of rotaries. (Call the Anachronism Police!!!) :) I would think that planes in use wouldn't have that just-shellacked look.

Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.

-snip-

I didn't see the movie so I can't say if the smoke trail effect was overdone but the smoke trails themselves are legitimate - indeed, an early German term for these was "Rauchspurgeschosse" which translates, I think, as "smoke producing bullet".

All the major combatants used smokeless powder and all had tracer ammunition. Phosphorus and magnesium both seem to have been used to produce the various tracer rounds. Burning phosphorus, of course, produces a rather heavy smoke.

Cheers,

Undoubtably Josef Jacobs (48 victories) who piloted at least two all-black triplanes.

Cheers,

are the different colors cause by varietys or introduced effects? i seem to remember white and red as varietys. is this correct?

You can alter the burn color by introducing trace chemicals into the incendary mix - barium for red, copper for green and so on. The same principle is used to produce multi-colored fireworks displays.

Dunno if WW I combatants did that or just used "white" tracers but certainly the practice adding chemicals to produce a colored tracer was common by the second world war.

I'd suspect colored tracers were fairly common during the 1914-18 unpleasantness.

Cheers,

" WmB" wrote

Haven't seen the movie (it probably won't show here, either), so I can't comment on it as such, but AFAIK, WW1 a/c generally had absolutely ZIP in the way of armour - much too heavy for them to carry any useful amount. There were late-war exceptions - the Sopwith Salamander comes to mind, and I have a feeling that AEG of Germany had a couple, but these types were usually used for trench strafing and hence could sacrifice a little performance in exchange for a better chance that the pilot would get back to the field! There may be others, but I'm positive that there won't be many.

As for bullet damage scattering around everywhere - possibly not that unusual, given the state of aero weapons and ammunition at the time (see below). The general rule in combat was to get close enough to see the whites of the enemy's eyes, then halve that distance! (OK, I'm exaggerating a bit, but you get the idea). Aces were usually the ones who pressed home their attacks more fiercely than the rest - most were actually fairly ordinary pilots - they just got close enough to make sure every bullet they fired had the best chance possible to hit something apart from the French fields below.

Lethal damage to a pilot - with the pattern spreading out all over the show (due to inconsistencies in ammo and gun manufacture, small calibre bullets, short and poor training, old-fashioned 'nerves' etc), it's a wonder that ANY bullets ever hit anything. The small calibre bullets no doubt contributed to many pilots surviving encounters that SHOULD have finished them.

I could be wrong though - no doubt minds immeasurably superior to my own are already making their plans...

Rob

Early MG tech ??? Are you serious ?

You need to read about the Boer War before you think MG's in WW I were *early tech* !! (the words Pom Pom gun, and concentration camp also came from that war) You might also read about how effective Colt potato diggers were against American squatters as well.

All this before WW I......

The Mg's themselves were well thought out well performing machines by WW I. Shame infantry tactics didn't move along as fast, tho (again) the Boer War gave everyone a taste to how effective they could be. No major power seemed to learn the lesion tho.

The smoke trails from the projectiles are a measure of air pressure, moisture content, temperature. (and velocity of said projectile)

I have had 22 250 rounds produce the exact same trails on very hot, humid days before. (40gr bullet @ 4150 fps)

The aircraft built by Doktor Junkers come to mind. Note most were experimental during the war, or arrived too late to make an impact, but his J-I was rather heavily armored. And his all-metal D-I and Cl-I were positively modern looking!

For me, if it's before the Ma Deuce - it's early.

Between "early and later" which would you choose?

Well gee - I'm aware that the MG predates WWI, having bumped into a few pages on Maxim and his hardware.

WmB

i really want that d1 kit. that is one very cool looking ac.

I honestly don't know, I've always been a single shot rifle kinda guy... I actually gave away my Browning BAR (civilian model guys)and my other big bore hunting rifles when my girlfriend passed away a couple of years ago. I am just recently getting back into shooting. (got a Mini 14, and put an EOTech on it)

Sorry if I came off a little harsh, weather has been real cold round here recently, real killer on all these broken bones.......

Naah - just preaching to the choir a little. I've been in drydock myself for the past week fighting a nasty sinus infection and cold. Got the cold cleared up - and now my head really hurts.

I hate winter.

WmB

Yup, got a sinus infection too, the pressure really hurts. Espically considering that I had my jaw taken almost clean off a long time ago. Nothing like having arthritis in your face.

Worst part is I have almost finished my KV 2, would have set a record for getting a kit done so fast, and then this pain, I mean cold spell..... Just waiting on painting the tracks

Soon as I feel better enough, I got to take some pic's and put them up.

we actually had normal weather after a harsh cold spell. it was over 60 yesterday.

pictures, yes, please. and which kv kit was it? i did the tamy last year and bout the trumpeter on you guys advice to use it's tracks on the tamy. i did and it looks good. if anyone wants pics, i could do it.

Pic's coming soon, hopefully this weekend.

It is the Trumpeter kit. An absolutely GEORGOUS kit IMHO.

However...

I put the fenders on even before I looked at the Tracks. BAD idea !!! Only thing that has saved me is that I havnt glued any wheels, idlers, or sprockets on. Otherwise I would have been screwed ! As it is it took almost two days to fit the tracks on the return rollers idlers, and sprockets. Actually not that hard with practice, but still I should have done all the fitting BEFORE I finished the hull/fenders.

Good news is that this kit fit's almost as well as the Dragon Flak 36 kit. (exceptional IMHO) Both are the most fun I've had building models in a long while. I am stunned at how WELL everything fit together ! This IS the golden age of modeling !!!! I feel like I am actually LOSING skills as I build these kit's. Thank God the 251 wasn't that great a fit. It reminded me that one still has to have some of that modeling skill stuff handy lol...

In three months I have finished the FLAK 36, a PAK 38, and almost finished the Sdkfz 251C (tracks again...) I havnt weathered any of them, as for the first time since I was a kid, I am thinking of dioramas now. Thanx to my younger 11 Bravo son, as he LOVES doing figures. So when he gets back from Iraq, we will be doing some joint diorama's then ;-)

ok, i'm motivated and i dragged the kit out. the fenders stay off. i will use the piece track and not the rubber band. it is a beautiful kit! clean and good.