Athearn and Hobby Store vs Mail order.

You lit the flames. Me I'm doing the response in the evening. It's relaxing to get a good laugh listening to your rants. Write again tomorrow I'll be intersted in reading more of your backwoods humor (newsgroup topic as a "bar fight". Yup that's another good one!)

Dave

If you post to a public forum that I read then YOU ARE TALKING TO ME and everyone else that reads it. He said legitimate dealers. There are many legitimate dealers that attend train shows. He did not paint all or anyone in particular as illegitimate dealers. You have jumped to that conclusion. And no my nose is not bloody but my sides are hurting from laughing at your responses. You jump on any little angle to form whatever conclusion you see fit. You never supply a shred of data back to buttress your opinion or rebuttals. Can you say that you have ever had any direct dealings with Horizon or Athearn? How about any distributors of hobby products? How long have you worked in a retail establishment? If the answer as I suspect is no then I can conclude you are merely stirring a pot to see what brews. Oh and maybe it's time you left the "bar" (you mentioned) as you have apparently had enough.

Dave

You are again reading in what you want. I read it again and he neither said nor implied what you have imagined. Check out the definition of what constitutes slander. As you have never even been in his store how much Athearn do you think he carries. Some or perhaps even none. Usually from what I've read he has talked mostly steam and Spectrum or BLI in particular.

Dave (Rathburnes "wordsmith")

Dave, don't be to hard on Ratty. everytime he posts here he has to fight the urge to bring his employment history into play. Luckily for us he wins the battle, otherwise every post would end with "and do you want fries with that?"

everyone views life from their own perspective.

Rath,

I'm a train show dealer. I didn't feel slandered by what he wrote.

I may not like what Horizons is doing because it effects a number of my friends who are dealers, but he simply offered his perspective as a shop owner.

I may not like the implications of what he said, but there's nothing slanderous about it.

Try another word.

Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Operating Traffic Lights Crossbucks Special Effects Lighting

No, it's a legitimate criticism, from a shop owner's perspective, of some train show vendors and the distributors who supply them.

He, it's the truth. They're out there.

Mike Tennent "IronPenguin" Operating Traffic Lights Crossbucks Special Effects Lighting

I have been in his store. Smelled the cat litter. Been upstairs to the graveyard of old products. He has Athearn for sale unless he dropped it in the last few years, which I doubt since he would not be crowing about how Horizon is such a great deal for him.

You need to learn english. You wordsmith's make me laugh.

Who are you double posting as?

No, that's neither slander nor libel; it is merely a statement of fact. The "Gypsy" who shows up at the train show with a big load of heavily discounted Athearn- and what ever else- is going to drive the price down everywhere. The fellow who is trying to sell at full MSRP is going to get his butt kicked. He won't sell anything until the Gypsy is sold out and gone. The full MSRP guy is, naturally, not going to like this, so he is going to complain about Gypsies.

The whole reason I go to the few shows that I do go to is to find the Gypsies. I am not the least bit interested in paying full MSRP for anything; especially when I can get anything I want, any time I want it at full MSRP.

There are always two or more sides to any issue and there are always dissenting opinions. That is a simple fact of life. I like to believe that I understand both sides; however, understanding another's viewpoint does not equate with agreeing with it. I fully understand the reasoning and motivation behind those dealers who want tight control of product and who wish to maintain a high level of retail pricing. Were I a retailer, I should desire the same thing.

I am not, however, a retailer; I am the end user. My primary concern is certainly not how to help the retailer achieve the highest profit margin possible. Hardly. My primary focus is on getting the absolute best bang for my buck. This may equate to getting the greatest quantity of product for the least price. If the Gypsy has Athearn, new or used, for thirty cents on the dollar, as opposed to the train store table on the next aisle who is offering a "Special 10% Train Show Discount", It doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to determine where I am going to make my purchase. Now, if Horizon and the retailers manage to run the Gypsies out of the arena, then I will simply follow them out. There is no other reason for me to be there.

I go to train shows to find bargains. Eighty-six the bargains, sayonara train show.

..........F>

What have you ever done to protect your job & hourly wage? What's the difference?

My favorite shop for over twenty-five years recently went out of usiness because of A. Internet sales, B. Mail order and C. TV shopping channels.

People have no sense of decency anymore. They would go into the shop, look at some new release, ask all kinds of questions, then go call some discount MO place and buy it. When it did't run, they'd bring it in and expect more answers and would become indignent when the shop owner expected to be paid for repairs.

The shopping channel story is a good one... one of the major trainset manufacturers was coming out with a new item around Christmas time. The manufacturer had taken "reservations" for this set for quite some time. Well... one of the shopping channels went to them and offered to buy a quantity larger than what they had to fill all orders. So, those with "reservations" went to the back of the line and many of them didn't get the sets in time for the Christmas holiday sales period.

All of us must make a good living to enjoy life. It still kills me how we expect this for ourselves but don't want to allow others that same opportunity.

dlm

...I am not the least bit interested in paying full MSRP for anything; especially when I

Huh? no flame intended but what are you stating here? was it ...any time I want at less than MSRP.

Art

Froggy,

Great points made!

I might add that I wonder how any train show (around here only 4-5 per year in a 500 square mile circle), no matter how discounted the trains may be, could dictate retail pricing for the remaining 359 days of the year.

I just attended a GATS (first time) out in Pleasanton back in early December. I walked out with only four RTR models. 3 Atlas and one Athearn. I could have certainly bought more as they had well over 100 dealers in two seperate buildings. But there were very few HO discounters in attendance (only one for HO). There were quite a few sellers that were in fact "above" the LHSs in pricing. And the remainder were of average (or basically the same as the LHS) price. After the enterance fees and parking fees I figure I paid about 10-12% above MSRP for my 4 items. As far as I could see, the LHS had absolutely nothing to fear from this show. But I did take my kids and they had a blast and that made it all worthwhile.

While I may not have had tangible savings, the intangebles were priceless and made the trip and fees worth the price paid. But I do not think I will be going to too many more shows unless I can take the kids. To me GATS is not worth it.

Art

Dan. Which shopping channel sells model RR stuff?

No. I said just what I meant to say. If I am willing to pay full MSRP, there is neither limit nor restriction on what I can get or when I can get it. For example: If I am willing to pay full price, I can get all the passenger cars I want from Terminal Hobby Shop. All I have to do is open my browser window and type the order. Two days later it is on my doorstep.

I do not do this for several reasons, one of them being that I don't have to. As dearly as Phil Walthers would like to force me to pay full MSRP, he cannot. I can get the cars from a discounter. I could get them from the LHS as well, but he also wants full MSRP ~ PLUS~ he has to special order the cars ~AND~ wants me to pay in advance; so I do not trade with him. I have told him repeatedly that if I pre-pay I will not do it for less than a 15% discount. That is fair because I am paying him

18-1/3% to do nothing more than place the order. His capital is never at risk. He doesn't agree or understand- I don't know which- so I just don't bother with him any more. It is not to my advantage to do so. I do just as well on price and get faster delivery if I order straight from Terminal. I never have to leave my office or workshop.

The whole idea I was trying to convey was that I am not the least bit interested in going to a train show where the dealers are selling their wares at full retail, or even a small 10 -15% discount. It's a complete waste of my time and I won't do it. I cannot even recoup my entry fee and the cost of operating my vehicle to and from the show. The guy who wants his full margin as indicated by the MSRP will, in the end, get almost none of my hobby dollar. I may buy some low-cost items like paint or plastic sheets and shapes, but he won't get the opportunity to sell me the high ticket items. That's not my fault, it's his. He makes the rules. I just play by them. He demands more than I am willing to pay so I look elsewhere. That's just the way it is. There is always someone who is willing to give you a better deal than MSRP. That is not going to change, no matter how fervently Walthers and Horizon and many dealers would wish it. The distributors are forced to give 33 - 40% or greater discounts off MSRP to the dealers so that they can mark up the product enough to make a profit. Less than that and the dealers will bail out and discontinue the product from their inventory. The distributors cannot direct market. They haven't the expertise or ability. So long as the system works this way there will always be dealers who can discount and make a profit on volume sales.

Now, before anyone starts to type any flames, think about this, and apply it to yourself:

When was the last time you went to Home Depot to get something instead of to the local Mom-N-Pop hardware store?

---------but, that's different (bulls**t)

When was the last time you went to Wal-Mart instead of the downtown men's store to get something to wear?

.........but, that's not the same thing (bulls**t)

When was the last time you got discount, self-serve gasoline at a foreign-owned convenience store instead of going to a full-serve station?

......now, hold on there Froggy, you're out of line! (bulls**t)

Let he among you who is righteous and without spot or blemish hurl the first stone.

............F>

The same sort of thing also goes on in the shortwave and amateur radio hobbies. it also is known to be a factor in music stores, not too many of them left. I use to go to Whittles, J. T. McCords but they are long gone and it is getting hard to find sheet music especially of songs not widely played on the radio. I liked the specialty stores since though they charged more they were better able to help me with specific problems. Hey, I know a barn. Are my favorite line from Day At The Races: "Do you have a breedersd guide? No! But I think I know where I can get one".

I also can agreee to a point, if you have the background in modeling, etc. However; some like me need assistance sometimes and if I need help I like to go to my local shop. Once I have learned enough then I might not feel this away. Like I now know how to play the guitar well enough that I don't need a teacher from the music store like I did in the past. Though, if persons get discouraged because things don't work for them they may quit and then prices go up due to lack of support from having bad taste in their mouth. I have learned already a bargain is not a bargain if it does not work as expected and you let it just collect dust, unless you like it displayed as such. I think a postion a person takes may be dependent on their background and knowledge. I work in a grocery store and I meet a lot of experts but not always about what they claim expertise in. I am not a very good sales person, but I know how to sack the groceries and do the carry outs that have kept me working for 14-years. Not the best job but I have seen others laugh at me that have come and gone. Now, granted at times I desrved to be laughed at, and some who laughed at me have gone on to better work and working conditions. When I know as much as I need to know then I will be one looking for bargains from online and trade shows. I see there is room for both perspectives and neither is wrong that I have seen in this thread.

Charles, a person with many hobbies which I am equally poor because of.

Your right, these guys want the shows to end and they think if the discounts go away, you will HAVE to come to THEIR store when THEY decide it is open and open you wallet to pay what THEY think is 'fair'.

They underestimate the market and think it is 1974 still..............

Then where will you buy, no doubt from B&M shops. Jerry