DCC - why not?

You guys beat me to it. Nice job on the cost analysis....

Address 0 is not in my opinion suitable for extended use, especially with small motors, you had better include the other 30 decoders in your costing!

Keith

Rubbish. If you go to buy such things new, you might pay a fortune; if you do a bit of searching (e.g. garage sales, disposal stores), the cost is minimal. Same applies to switches.

AU$40 for wire? Yeah - I was just rounding and it would have been more, but not a great deal more. On the other hand, I priced the switches I've used today and they'd actually work out at under $5 each including knobs, and the average cost will be closer to $4 per switch, as less than half require a knob. In the yards I have rotary switches (for left and right mainline throttles and the yard throttle), in the intermediate towns I use DPDTCO switches (left and right throttles only). So the extra cost of the wire will largely be offset by the saving on the switches.

You're right - I did forget about the throttles, etc. Most of my power supplies are all freebies that I've picked up along the way (~40 years), and I build my own transistor throttles. My 6 tethered (walk-around) throttles cost me about $15 each, and my two panel mounts less than $10 each. It is about 60 blocks spread across 2 yard panels (~12 each) and 4 town panels. The layout is walk-around, and the town panels mean that the length of wire between the panel and the track is in most cases only a few feet. OTOH, I was conservative with DCC throttles, as I will be relying on friends to bring theirs over.

Block lights? Ammeters? ......Why?

Control panels - print the track plan artwork onto paper and laminate it., then back it with a sheet of mdf board. It works a treat. Cost = a few cents. In fact, my DCC operating friend does the same thing to show the town layouts, so the cost is the same eaither way.

Zephyr? Thanks - I will check it out. One of my friends recommended the EB and I haven't looked into it myself. I expect to run up to 6 DCC 'trains' at a time, some of which will be double headed, plus a (7th) double or triple deaded DC train on address "00". Is the limitation on the number of loco addresses, locos, or trains? Yes, I think the throttles were the UT4s. I just want whatever's cheapest, ... with a big knob. I'm not particularly interested in the ...err, bells and whistles. If I save money on the main unit then I can afford to buy more throttles. As for a booster - well as I mentioned, I will be running up to 10 locos at a time, so power will be a consideration. But my reason for wanting more than two (eventually) is to minimise the effect of short circuits.

BTW - almost all my switches were used on an earlier layout which predated DCC, so their cost to me is actually nothing. Most of my locos are older units which will require milling to fit a decoder into. When I convert I will simply put all my DC locos into the through train motive power pool, and buy new decoder equipped locos to run on DCC.

So don't get me wrong - I'm not opposed to DCC. I plan to convert when I can afford to, just so that I can run more trains simultaneously. But that won't be until I have nothing better to spend the money (well over AU$1200 including the new locos) on. In the meantime, my layout handles 4 trains simultaneously just fine.

Regards, Ron

Yep!

I use mains rated wire for main buses and heavy duty figure-eight "speaker" wire for hooking up the track power. It is actually remarkably cheap. If you look around though, it's amazing how easy it is to come by FREE wire.

Ron

Keith,

This is one thing that worried me, so I've done a fair bit of testing on a friend's DCC layout. The noise is annoying when the locos are stationary, but when they're moving all seems okay.

My through trains will usually only make one trip per session. They come online from staging, exchange cars at one yard, then run to the second yard (at the other end of the layout) and exchange more cars, before going back to staging. Total running time is only about 10 minutes. I don't expect that to be a problem, but if anyone would care to comment, I'm listening.

Ron

No doubt that's the same feeling of merriment that I get when DCC proponents (especially those who've never built a DC layout) explain to me all the things that I can't do with DC - except, usually I can.

ron

I'm not trying to get the same capability that DCC offers. And what's more - I DON'T WANT IT! In a typical operating session, about one-third of my block switches (industrial sidings and yard tracks) don't get thrown at all. (They are there 'just in case')

I have a 20' x 18' room, with a point to point (staging yard to staging yard) N scale layout that runs around the walls, and down two peninsulas. There are classification yards at each end and five towns in between (each with a passing track and industrial sidings). I (simultaneously) run a switcher in each yard, plus a through freight and a local switcher. Operations are at a relaxed pace because that's how it was done on the prototype I'm modelling.

Plus S&H to Australia, and a power supply on Australian current ... over AU$1200. As I said.

I'll have to read my post again. Maybe I DID say that I want to "get _equivalent_operational_capability_ with DCC"

WTF? I don't WANT to run 10 trains at a time. Hello - did you read what I said???

Joe - what have you "proven" here? Your whole argument (and your costs) is based on your misguided notion that I have 120 blocks, and that I want to run somewhere between 10 and 120 trains at a time. Where did you get that from???

Ron

I have to doubt you've tried to get "free" wire any time recently. Copper prices are up high enough that crooks are burning down warehouses in the process of trying to steal the wiring to sell. New homes under construction have had just-installed wiring ripped out of them during the night. Copper pipe for plumbing has doubled or trebled in price. Brass fittings, too.

I think that Joe has proven that he is one of the type of people who, after becoming addicted to a certain approach, must make everyone else's situation fit into their own framework.

However I certainly don't fit into it. I only have two eyes and therefore could not even watch 10 trains simultaneously.

My favourite is that old reliable comment, "I have 200+ locomotives - it would cost too much to buy and fit decoders to convert them to DCC!"

And yet it didn't cost too much to buy 200+ locomotives in the first place? LOL!

Mark.

No doubt the cost of obtaining wire and switches this way is minimal. But to me, what you would be then doing is embarking on a new hobby - scavenging!

Mark.

Perhaps... but you wouldn't need them AT ALL with DCC, and you wouldn't be limited in what you can do by where the block divisions are. "You don't want" the operational ability of DCC... probably because you've never HAD it.

The only _valid_ comparison in pricing between analog and digital REQUIRES you to compare _operational_capability_. Otherwise, it's an apples to coconuts comparison. You're not _REALLY_ comparing the same layout. You're just comparing _different_ layouts that happen to have the same track plan.

That's similar in size and concept to the N scale layout I'm building. I'll have just one peninsula, but it's a multi-level layout with over 6 double-tracked scale miles of track, point to point. My yards at each end will be working yards, with one in the middle of the run. Add a bunch of industrial sidings and a dedicated passenger hi=speed rail line. Guess what? The DCC costs are _exactly_ the same as the layout half the size.

Power supply can be the same one you use for the analog layout, which is why it wasn't included. The command station/booster takes 12-24 volt AC or DC input. AC Hz doesn't matter - it's rectified inside the unit. S&H to Oz is NOT over $100 AU.

As I said above, it's the only VALID way to compare costs.

You didn't say HOW many trains you ran at a time in your original post, so it wasn't there to read, was it? You DID say you ran 30 to 40 in an operation session. You mentioned 4 throttles, but said "luckily my friends have more", indicating more than four trains were run. But think about it... if you only have 1-5 running at a time, you only need one set of switches (but you still have to change the setting every time you enter/leave a block... and don't even TRY to tell us you and your operators never forget to do that!).

However, to add just ONE train (for a total of six), you have to add another _complete_ set of switches and wiring.. and flip one or two every time you enter /leave a block. You're good then until you get to

As anyone who has made the change can tell you, you run more trains on a layout with DCC than you did on the same layout with analog... BECAUSE YOU CAN. When you have to completely rewire a layout to add a train (as in your case) it provides considerable operational inertia.

Your whole misguided notion is that you can compare a DCC layout evenly to your analog layout and make the comparison based on costs without considering operational flexibility. As I said above, you're comparing apples to coconuts. Really tiny apples. Really BIG coconuts.

You say you have 60 blocks now. Got a track plan that shows them? Post a link to it and I'll take a look at it. I'm betting it would require AT LEAST 120 blocks to even APPROACH the capability of a DCC system powering the same track plan. It might well need _over_ 200 blocks to approach operational parity with DCC.

I think you missed the part of his original post where he said he has multiple operators...

Pac Man: What I find amusing is the pseudo-religious devotion DCCers have to their own pet system. :-)

Cordially yours: Gerard P.

Oh, god, that brings me back. I made the same comment on the Atlas Forum many moons ago, and I thought I was going to be drawn and quartered after being hanged...especially by David Harrison. I said I had far more sympathy for the guy that has a couple locos that says he can't afford DCC then the guy that has 200 locos who can obviously afford a great deal more. You would have thought I poked him in the eye by the response I got. Jeez.

Paul A. Cutler III

LOL! We're no more or less evangelical than some of the more strident members of the DC camp! :-)

Cheers,

Mark.

I can imagine! Mind you, I'm buggered if I know why anyone would *want*

Cheers,

Mark.

Well, I built two multi-cab DC layouts for myself, and operated and maintained a 2500 sq. ft. layout at my club that was DC (built 1953, added on in 1980). So I'm quite familiar with most of the problems, issues, and tribulations that occur with a cab controlled DC layout.

Paul A. Cutler III