I wouldn't use _ANY_ MRC DCC equipment on a bet[1]. Most other brands work well. I usually use Digitrax, Lenz, and TCS, in that order. You should be able to use NCE in HO, but most of their "N scale" decoders are larger for the feature count and/or drop-in Digitrax decoders with more features are available that are easier installs.
Basic decoders (Motor control and a couple of functions for headlights) can be had for as low as $15.00 US each. Price goes up for more functions and sound, ESPECIALLY sound - up to around $80-120 US. As I understand it, some low-end HO locomotives are best converted using a wiring harness which will add a little to the cost. This DOES give you the advantage of being able to quickly change out decoders to share them between locomotives or quickly upgrade in the future.
[1] I've had multiple bad experiences with MRC. They're _years_ behind the technology curve, their documentation is poor to non-existant, and I was never able to even change the address on a decoder using a Digitrax Chief or Zephyr system with several permutations of throttles and computer setups. MRC actually costs a LOT more, because after you buy the junk you have to turn around and buy something to replace it. Save your money and buy good stuff that actually works.
So. A digitrax system (programmer, power source, throttle) for $150. A dozen decoders at $15 makes about $180. So it's $330 to get going in DCC? Or is there more? This is a small home layout with mostly one operator.
As opposed to a pair of DC throttles with memory and walk around control boxes. Say Rich Weygand's cooler crawlers in kit form for $89 ea ($178 for two). Or roll your own circuits, except that roll-your -own has a tendency to cost more for parts than a kit.
Either way: Run two throttle buses(#14 romex house wire which I have already) around the layout. Use DPDT center off toggle switches mounted in the fascia for block control. If DCC they serve for troubleshooting. If DC, they select which throttle is connected to the block in question.
Question. Why use the decoder to operate the headlamp? Just to regulate the 24 V DCC track power down enough to run a 12 volt lamp? Suppose the locomotive has the 4 diode constant on headlamps? I like my headlamps on all the time to serve as an indication that the locomotive is getting power. I gave up on the forward/reverse headlamp diodes some years ago.
It's not about money. You either get it or you don't. If you don't, you're the loser. If you don't want it, don't get it. Nobody really cares what you do anyway.
The proposed DCC system above can run 10 trains at a time. You need _TEN_ cooler crawlers for an equitable comparison... for a total of $890.
It's a freebie, (some kind of headlight control comes with nearly every motor decoder) so why NOT use it?
That's all well and good... but locomotives don't sit in the yard with their lights on all the time when they're "between trains"... and then there's dimming when in a siding, Mars lights, Gyralights, one or two strobes (flashing once or twice, together or alternately, directionally dependent or constant on...), rotary beacons...
What about "This is a small home layout with mostly one operator" didn't you understand? The man doesn't want to run 10 trains at once.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's a matter of opinion - i.e. theology. If you must argue theology here, try to get your premises correct.
in article snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com, Larry Blanchard at snipped-for-privacy@fastmail.fm wrote on 8/12/06 8:43 AM:
Is is a matter of opinion, but rationally, not theology.
A layout builder/designer must decide what capability he or she wants, the amount of money to budget, how much time to invest in implementation, and which aspects of that implementation are of interest. And whether he or she thinks a particular implementation is "cool." (I'm a computer geek, so to me, DCC is cool; others may decide the analog DC route is more cool).
For the electrical system, there are trade-offs. In general, for multiple train control, even by a single operator, DCC is simpler to wire and run, though more expensive.
For example, I built a simple Atlas 4x8 foot layout (#8, if I remember: two concentric loops, a a couple of simple yards) which involved six blocks to isolate the loops, the yard tracks, and a spur track; for two operators, I needed two power supplies, and six toggles, and a bunch of time to cut gaps and wire the whole thing up. But the electrical was fairly inexpensive, even using off the shelf components (MRC power packs, atlas switches, etc.).
The same layout for DCC involved no gapping, no switches, and running enough feeders to make sure there was no current drop; but using an empire builder, it was A LOT more expensive, but easier to run for two or more operators, or even for just me.
For my current layout (see web site), I went with DCC for ease of operation and wiring, even though with six power districts, the wiring was not that much simpler, and I even have a toggle switch to convert one siding into a programming / operating / off track. (Heck, wiring up the turnout machines to a control panel was way more complicated than train control). But budget was not my main concern; The control stuff (adding a SuperChief 8 amp to the system, PM42 for district power distribution and protection, etc.) cost more than just a bunch of toggles and a couple of power supplies. But it sure is easy to run, and the six districts make fault isolation easy (a light lights up on the PM42 which is labeled).
So the rational decision is not religious (or not necessarily religious). There are a bunch of trade-offs, and the new layout builder/designer needs to consider them and discard the religious nonsense.
Where did he say that he didn't _want_ to run ten trains? What part of "mostly" did you interpret to mean "exclusively"? One operator does NOT preclude running multiple trains, and "mostly one operator" implies "sometimes more than one operator". I've done as many as 4 at a time myself for several hours at a public show on a fairly small layout with two mains. (Try that on analog without losing your sanity...) Even limiting it to _just_ 4 trains, you're still at $356 JUST for the cooler crawlers.
...plus wiring and switches....
And _I_ will say it again: Comparisons based on price that fail to take into consideration the MUCH higher capabilities of digital over analog control are invalid at best, and often deliberately misleading.
Cause there is a 50 50 chance that the headlamp you can see is the headlamp the diodes are holding dark. You hit the throttle and the train fails to move. Has this happened to anyone here? Yes? So, why is the train stuck? If the headlamp lights up anything electrical is pretty much eliminated. If the headlamp fails to light, you start checking block toggles and throttle settings and fwd/rev toggles and connectors and crawling under the layout looking for broken wires and .... We have all been there. So. Seeing the headlamp light up gives a good warm feeling that all is well in wiring hell. Diodes reduce the number of good warm feelings by 50%, cause they hold the headlamp dark 50% of the time.
There is such a thing as cost effective design. I will readily grant that DCC offers higher performance in terms of number of trains operable at one time, and freedom from block toggles. It also seems to be more expensive, largely from the need for a $15-20 decoder in each locomotive. I may decide to spend the savings from skipping DCC to purchase rolling stock or scenery or .....
Talk to me about trouble shooting a DCC layout. I can wire and troubleshoot analog DC layouts with nothing more than a VOM. When a train fails to move on a DCC layout what does the operator do? How do you isolate failures in the wiring, the decoder, the power pack, the programming, short circuits....????
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:26:39 -0400, David Starr wrote:
Here's the talk. I don't think you even need a VOM to troubleshoot a DCC system. If you have a short circuit because of a misaligned turnout, or a foreign object on the track, that is neither easier, nor more difficult to locate on either type of system. The DCC system will audibly alert you to the presence of a short, the do-it-yourself, home engineered DC system may or may not. In the ten plus years that I have been using DCC, the two previously mentioned examples are the only ones I can think of where short circuits have occurred. If a train doesn't run, and it is one that previously did run, listen for the beep that alerts for shorts. If you don't hear the beep, check the cleanliness of the track. If the track is clean, check the engine's wheels for dirt. No dirt? Look to see if the power supply lights are on. If another engine will run, anywhere on the layout, but the one in question will not, then that engine has a problem, not the DCC system. If you are determined to use test equipment to troubleshoot, then make a light bulb with clips to test for track current. It the bulb comes on, but the train won't run, you have an engine problem. If the bulb won't come on check the feed wire for that segment of track, or the track connectors. Unlike DC systems, once a DCC system operates the first time, it will operate forever. There is nothing to change, there is no operator input of any kind, there is no way to set up conflicting blocks, bridge block gaps, cross-connect throttles or any of a thousand things that can cause DC systems to misbehave. You cannot run into someone else's block and lose control of your train, because you control the locomotive, not the track it is running on, You cannot stop on a gap and short circuit the blocks, because there are no block gaps. They are not needed. You cannot have failure of block selector switches and myriad control panel devices, because there are no control panels. Everything you need to run one train or one hundred trains is in the palm of your hand. It is so easy and simple that it almost defies comparison with conventional DC systems.
Edgar Buchannan Jr. snipped-for-privacy@shadyresthotel.com
That's a personal preference. Directional lighting does have it's problems if you're looking for presence of power and the direction is wrong. Same basic problem happens with DCC in that directional lighting again won't indicate power. What's worse is that even if you have DCC, you don't know if you have the loco with the controller until you try to move it or do something else with it. Basically, you trade one set of problems for another of equal order.
-- Why do penguins walk so far to get to their nesting grounds?
The thing here is that the DC layout has it's costs related to how many trains can be run while the DCC layout has an ever increasing cost of providing decoders to the locos themselves. In other words, if I have 10 locos and can run 4 of them at a time, the DC layout will cost the four controllers while the DCC layout will cost the base, 4 controllers AND the module in each of 10 locos with another loco added costing for the DCC conversion also. Thus, If I add in another 5 locos to my loco roster for some reason, the additional cost for the DC layout is nothing while the cost for the DCC layout is an addtional decoder module for each of the new locos.
-- Why do penguins walk so far to get to their nesting grounds?
The event I mentioned above (running 4 trains on two mains by myself) I used _one_ controller, with one train on each track active. I let one train on each main run, and keep the other on the throttle so the speed could be adjusted. I run a Digitrax system, so the throttles I have were capable of controlling two trains simultaneously. So, _one_ controller.
In addition, I was running one locomotive WITHOUT a decoder using "zero stretching"... so, only three decoders.
The base unit that he mentioned was undoubtedly the Zephyr (going by the price he quoted). It has one single throttle built in, but that can easily be switched to any train address. I've used it to control three trains at a time myself just using the single throttle. It also has two "jump ports", that allow using a 'smooth DC' voltage source as a digital throttle. Several folks have built theirs using a 9 volt battery, a rheostat, and a reversing toggle in a plastic box, which I'm sure you can see is _far_ cheaper than the cited 'cooler crawler'.
However, if you want to actually RUN those five locos on analog like you would be able to on digital once the decoders are in them, then you probably have to add at least one new rotary switch for every block, and do all the associated wiring, and add a new throttle for every locomotive. Which do you think is easier?
Roundhouse queens don't cost anything more with DCC either.
...and if you don't want to run them at the same time, well, if you have a Digitrax or Lenz system you can run them without decoders, too.
Part of the problem here is that you don't appear to know enough about what you're talking about to talk about it. Directional lighting is an option. You can have directional lighting or not. you can have directional lighting and have number boards and/or cab interior lights or a cabtop beacon that stays lit all the time. You can put a pilot light in the fascia, or somewhere else that is powered by track power. Any time track power is on, the light is on. Since you do not power route, or power individual tracks with DCC like you do with DC, you only need a single indicator for the entire power district- and that is only if you subdivide the layout into power districts. It's a good idea, but not mandatory. The controller tells you which engine it is linked to. All you have to do is look at the display or the selector switches. You are not equally trading one set of problems for another. You are adopting a newer and easier to use technology with only a small fraction of the potential problems of the old-fashioned DC method. Yes, you do have to learn how to use it, no one was born knowing how to use DCC. No one was born knowing how to engineer, build, maintain and operate a DC system either. The DC way is much more complex and harder to learn than the DCC way.
Edgar Buchannan Jr. snipped-for-privacy@shadyresthotel.com
My experience has been a bit different than what David is stating. I use
1.5V bulbs for constant lighting and use diodes for direction control for more realistic operation. I have been operating on a fairly large DC club layout for a number of years. I have found that about ninety percent of the time when the light comes on and the locomotive wont move you are dealing with something causing a short on the tracks. When the light doesn't come on, and it wont move, most often it is dirty track or dirty wheels or both. Obviously there can be other things wrong but these are the first things I look into when using the light as an aid to finding the problem.
On another subject -- putting decoders into your locos when going to DCC. Our club is now converting to DCC and I plan to initially add decoders to only a few of my locos that I use the most often. The others I can still run using address "zero zero". You can control one non DCC engine or consist at a time with that address. As time goes by I can add decoders to other locos but some that I use infrequently will probably never get them. Doing this should work well for someone with a small layout and will reduce the number of decoders you will need to install.
"jhbright" wrote in news:92SDg.13735$lv.8524@fed1read12:
Just wondering. I've tried that on a small DCC test track. And when- ever I put an engine which do not have a decoder on the track, it makes the most annoying loud electrical "humming" sound all the time they are on the track, no matter if they are driving or standing still.
Annoying enough that I don't plan on using non-decoder engines if I can avoid it.
Is this humming a standard feature of trying to drive a non-decoder engine on DCC track, or is it something with the DCC system I am running that makes this happen ?
I've tried with engines from Bachman, Lifelike (P2k) and Athearn.
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