Irresponsible Ad

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 08:54:11 -0400, Mike Tennent


Well I don't know about you, but I always do my best to keep my head firmly attached to my body when falling...
Here is what one helmet tester has to say about helmet standards: http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html#1081

Not really. Helmets are designed to withstand a type of impact which was never likely to cause serious injury in the first place, and then people wonder why helmet use fails to reduce levels of serious injury. Some people do, anyway. Others have less trouble understanding why...

Sorry, if I had realised that you didn't have the faintest clue about risk compensation theory I'd have explained it more clearly. For a good basic grounding I suggest you read Target Risk by Wilde (http://psyc.queensu.ca/target /), or Risk by Adams.
Remember that crashes are caused, in the main, not by the taking of large risks, but by the taking of small risks very large numbers of times. Cycling crashes are rare, you see, and serious injuries rarer; you can get away with a given risk in some cases hundreds of thousands of times - millions, even - without a mishap.
Helmeted riders perceive themselves as being better protected, so those small risks will be slightly bigger, or taken slightly more often. This balancing behaviour has been documented in respect of cars and seatbelts, cars and ABS, cyclists and helmets and various other areas.
It's a bit like walking along near the edge of a cliff. The risk of falling over gets higher the closer you go to the edge, even though the change in risk for each successive inch closer to the edge is unmeasurably small.
There are a lot of reasons people have put forward to explain the observed fact that head injury rates have never reduced as a result of increased helmet wearing, and of these I think risk compensation is one of the more compelling.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
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i stick mine up my butt. The extra body mass really attenuates the impact, and the tucked-in geometry gives a better rollout.
.max no offense meant, it was just an image that needed sharing.
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Mike Tennent wrote:

Do you decapitate yourself as you fall?
I think you didn't understand the word "disconnected." The helmet certification tests use a magnesium model of a head, fitted with linear accelerometers. That "headform" has no body attached. The impact of the decapitated headform seems a poor model for the impact of a head with a body still attached - the latter being most cyclists' personal preference!

It always seems to be irrelevant when people want to exaggerate the miniscule dangers of cycling. Simultaneously, the larger dangers from walking near traffic and riding in cars always seem irrelevant to the styrofoam fans. IOW, we're told we COULD, POSSIBLY be terribly hurt while cycling; but we're told it's foolish to worry about the _bigger_ risks of motoring and walking.
It seems a concerted effort to disparage and discourage cycling. It's hard to interpret it any other way.

Hmmm. Sounds to me like someone who hasn't read, nor thought about, this issue at all!
Tell me, since you apparently ride with a helmet: Is there any place or any situation where you would absolutely _not_ ride if you had no helmet? Perhaps mountain biking, or perhaps heavy traffic? If so, please describe it.
- Frank Krygowski
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What in the world does this have to do with model railroading? Give me a break. Or a brake. Or put on the brakes for this thread.
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

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At Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:02:41 -0400, message

I didn't cross-post it, but I ride my bike from the office to home, where my model railway is located.
Guy
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Sorry, I meant to snip rmr from my reply, but forgot to.
Blame Ken from NY for the crossposting to begin with.
Mike Tennent
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Mike Tennent wrote:

Triathletes would improve their safety if they learned to ride a bicycle as the first method of injury prevention. After that they could learn to change gears when they go up an incline.
I wonder if triathletes get the keys of the family car on the basis of buckling up in the seat belt rather than having acquired skills through driver's ed.
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I wish that were the case but I have destroyed two helmets in the last year with the only head injury being a headache. The worst was at only ~10MPH and the other at 22. When I see a rider without a helmet I take them as fools. Nothing will help you if you get your head run over by a semi but that kind of accident is fortunately not common. You can die from falling over getting uncliped without headgear.
Bob
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Robert Lorenzini wrote:

Is that to be considered evidence of the effectiveness of foam hats?
Hint: I'm not a strong man. I cannot hit you in the head with my fist hard enough to injure you, but I can punch the #&$^ out of a piece of styrofoam.
If I make a paper hat, wear it on my head and destroy it in a bicycle crash while not injuring myself, is that valid evidence that a paper hat saved me from injury?
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Robert Lorenzini wrote:

And when I read a statement like that, I _know_ it's written by a fool. You're obviously someone who has never looked at the facts of the matter, yet feels his judgement is superior to others. Ignorance and hubris, together as always.
Tell me, does your distain extend to every cyclist in the world before, say, 1975 or so? Does it extend to the billions of cyclists worldwide who presently ride wearing other (or no) styles of hats? Or does your condemnation extend only to those directly under your disapproving gaze?

Oh, good grief - as if _that's_ common!
You can die from tripping down the steps. And from slipping on ice. And from riding in cars - the most common cause of head injury fatality. And from walking near traffic, a far bigger fatality source than cycling. And from...
... well, I'm sure you're bored with all that. Because, of course, you want to portray only _cycling_ as being dangerous, right? Despite all the data that says otherwise, right?
Again: Ignorance and hubris.
Try reading http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/SafetyQuiz.htm
Try reading http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/maxi-faq-helmets
Try reading www.cyclehelmets.org
Try learning a bit before condemning others' judgement about their personal safety.
Cycling is NOT very dangerous. It does us no good to pretend it is.
- Frank Krygowski
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On 30 Jun 2005 21:56:01 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

Please feel free to ride unhelmeted, so long as you have complete health coverage and long term care insurance so I and others won't be picking up your bill. Break a leg!
--
Steve

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At Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:27:33 -0700, message
following:

Interesting comment at the end: according to the most widely cited pro-helmet study helmets do indeed prevent 72% of broken legs.
Guy
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Steve Caple wrote:

And this is your response to someone who pointed out that scientific research shows your statement to be idiocy. Now I know why foam hat fanatics are compared to religious zealots. Feel free to worship your foamed polystyrene god, but please go proselytize elsewhere.
Mitch.
PS: What is health insurance, if not a way to make others pay your medical bills?
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Steve Caple wrote:

If you think _you_ have any chance of picking up my medical bills, your knowledge of economics is as weak as your knowledge of bike safety!
But thank you, I will feel free to ride unhelmeted. I also feel free to jog unhelmeted. I ride in my car unhelmeted, despite the fact that car interiors cause far more brain injuries and deaths than bikes ever will. I also climb ladders unhelmeted. I've done rock climbing unhelmeted. I've ridden everything from kick scooters to ice skates unhelmeted.
And frankly, I think anyone who questions such personal choices needs a serious attitude adjustment... or a full-time job as an overprotective nanny!
- Frank Krygowski
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On 1 Jul 2005 07:54:45 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

And yet, you don't seem to comprehend the differences in these activities.
For someone who pro\fesses to being so well versed in risk management, you don't understand much about the risk of making this argument, do you?
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At Sun, 03 Jul 2005 09:46:44 -0400, message
all or none of the following:

False: Frank is well aware that the risk of head injury while driving or walking is much higher than for cycling, he just doesn't think it's high enough to merit special protective equipment.
Guy
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Cheery Littlebottom (apparently too timid to give his real name) wrote:

My bet is I understand all these risks far better than you.
All those things I listed are potential sources of serious head injury. As stated, car interiors (air bags and all) are still the number one cause of head injury fatalities in the US. Falls around the home are the number two.
(Interesting news story from yesterday: http://tinyurl.com/9zuns )
The head injury rate, per hour exposure, for walking near traffic is about the same as for cycling. The number of pedestrian fatalities (including head injury fatalities) dwarfs those for cycling.
Cycling is responsible for less than 1% of America's head injury fatalities. Motorists are roughly 50% of the victims. Falls around the home cause roughly 40%. Yet where are the calls for helmets for motorists? For ladder-climbers and stair-descenders? Why do the safety nuts pick on cycling?
Before Bell began marketing the Bell Biker in the mid-70s, there were _no_ warnings about head injuries and cycling. But Bell, and Snell (to whom Bell contributes) and Safe Kids (to whom Snell contributes) and various hand-wringing organizations have successfully convinced the public that brain-injured cyclists had to be plowed off the roads in 1970. They have successfully influenced cycling magazines so that Bicycling, Adventure Cyclist and the League of American Bicyclists magazine have editorial policies forbidding photos of Caucasians without helmets!
And now, we have legions of well-meaning cyclists who have never seen someone on a quality bike without a foam topping. And, since they know about presta valves and butted spokes, these guys think they know about head injuries.
Sorry, "Cheery Littlebottom," but it's all as silly as your pen name.
- Frank Krygowski
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:27:33 -0700, Steve Caple wrote:
Sorry - I didn't mean to cross-post to rec.bicycles.sociopath.
--
Steve

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Steve Caple wrote:

In other words, you didn't want the discussion to involve anyone who actually knows anything about the issue?
OK, your preference for ignorance is duly noted.
- Frank Krygowski
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On 1 Jul 2005 10:13:20 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

No, this person who bicycle commuted for nearly ten years, rode centuries, was president of a bicycle club, bicycle toured independently in Europe, etc., just gets tired of Libertarian/NeoCon/Scamentologist/AynRanty/etc. zealots.
--
Steve

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