Lionel files for bankruptcy

oops

LIONEL sucks by by by you theifs

"Railfan" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

that is actually a pretty good move on Lionel's part. The filing stays execution of the judgement and keeps MTH from putting them out of business, which is probably the real goal of MTH. I know that MTH seems to be acting more and more like good, old Microsoft. One wonders what they are after. Probably, they would like to reproduce the M$ monopoly, but monopolize digital train control like DCC. Or maybe, they are just plain greedy. Either way, they won't get any of my money, but neither will Lionel. BLI, on the other hand, . . .

Actually it will be a major loss if Lionel goes. If you've watched the O Gauge arena for the last several years you've seen a lot of healthy competition which has produced some major advances in products. Those advances have included not only better train control, but more highly detailed rolling stock, an incredible array of operating accessories, and steady improvements in track. The market has gone through challenges along with the overall economy, but as it improves let's hope some competition remains!

jeppers> LIONEL sucks by by by you theifs

And apparently a little unhealthy competition -- judging from the current outcome of the lawsuit!

I thought the appeal already stayed execution of the judgement.

Woodard - I assume that means that you think that Lionel will not win the appeal?

This lawsuit didn't have anything to do with DCC; and if were strictly about greed - the jury would see through that. Your message reads like you have a grudge against Microsoft and you somehow want to extend that the logic of that grudge to MTH.

From what I understand, a big part of MTH's charge was that Lionel had to know that Samhongsa stole the plans from a MTH subcontractor, based on all of the circumstances. And apparently that has held with the juries up so far... Does Lionel's appeal go before a judge & jury, or strictly a judge?

The appeal is heard and decided by a panel of appellate judges, usually three.

Unless Lionel is appealing only the amount of the judgment, the appeal, in and of itself, is a denial of some or all of the charges.

The issue, it would seem to be, is the amount of the damages. The products in question represent only a small part of both firms' product lines. I can't see how a realistic damage award would be enough to bankrupt Lionel. I'd guess that the damages awarded may be overstated by as much as five or ten-fold.

In cases such as this more often than not the parties come to an accord or agreement to a significant reduction in the amount of the damages and in return the defendant drops the appeal.

Note that there is an interesting article on the Lionel difficulties, including some history in today (11/17/04) Wall Street Journal. The article does ignore the fact that model railroading is more than O scale.

But it does confirm the problem one of our posters asked about: he wants to buy a train set for his 4 year old, and Lionel and others of similar large size (friendly to small people) scales are priced out of sight. HO can fit the price guides, but little hands can have difficulty even putting them on the rails.

But an interesting article, none the less. Our average age is 52.

Ed

in article snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net at snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net wrote on 11/17/04 11:00 AM:

"Mark Mathu" wrote in news:avCmd.54455$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com:

I think that Lionel is hedging their bets. Remember when Penzoil got that really big (over one billion bucks) judgement against Texaco a few years ago. Texaco did the same thing-- they both appealed and filed Chapter 11. Probably the whole thing is driven by the advice of Lionel's lawyers. At any rate, the "double-whammy" technique of filing an appeal and filing for reorganization (Chapter 11) bankruptcy is pretty common. It seems like Manville also did the same thing when they got hit with the class-action judgement over asbestos.

The lawsuit wasn't over DCC, but a lot of lawsuits are filed for something else when the ultimate goal involves some issue not at question in the suit. Lawsuits are often a strategic ploy that can be used to weaken competition.

True. My comment about MTH is based on more than Lionel. Their patent claims regarding back EMF (used for years in some stereo systems), etc. are consistent with wanting to control the whole DCC scene. I know that their fight with BLI is more personal, but the claims that they make in their patent seem to overlap some of the stuff in Lenz' patents that were assigned to the NMRA. Add to that, their introduction of a competing system that does not fully conform to NMRA standards, etc., and the signs point to an overall strategy of trying to pull a Microsoft.