You wouldn't be a lawyer by any chance would you? It also appears as if you have never owned any stock (I mean actually have the certificates, not held by the broker) so that you get all the mailing.
No, but it seems you've graduated from the Rathburne school of jumping to wrong conclusions.
Explain the differences in mailings between shares owned in street name and those directly registered. My broker seems to do a good job forwarding material to me.
Also please explain how this would affect 1) raising hell at the UP stockholders meeting; 2) issues to vote on can be printed [whatever the heck you meant by that].
The point you are trying to make with this last sentence "It also appears as if you have never owned any stock (I mean actually have the certificates, not held by the broker) so that you get all the mailing" is not clear -- please elaborate.
By the way I forgot to ask; what are the rules of the bet and the amount. I'm not real rich so maybe a hundred would be the maximum. I'm assuming from your tone that you do want a wager of some kind. Rules of who wins; Will this be brought up at the UP meeting, in any form, you loose or _what are your thoughts_?
I didn't state that I wanted to bet. Please read more carefully!
It appears you're thinking of PATENTS, to which the above applies. Patents are good for seventeen years, and are NON-RENEWABLE.
Under current U.S. law, copyrights are good for the life of the author PLUS 50 YEARS. AFAIK, UP has NOT expired over fifty years ago.
Dieter Zakas
Jeez, I cant believe they forgot cat litter boxes, pooper scoopers, and oh would somebody light a match?
Bob
lets learn some subtleties alternatives:
1) buy a undecorated loco, paint it in up livery and stick a up sticker on it changing union to united2) this big company has better things to do in life than chase down individuals infinging $1 of trademark.
3) they will only charge the large companies... get a logo of their website and make it into a template for paintin ur models4) headline news! Model train fanatic arrested for copying union pacific logo!...... yeah right
5) the companies will be charged more for making them with that logo cos U.P. are stingy gits... welcome to the real world.and finally:
when people decide that the public cant be botherd to pay an extra $5 and sales fall, the prices of the models will fall in line with the others...
It takes some time to put together a viable defense. In the first ten months, there were only complaints, and compliance from cowards. I don't know how it will turn out but I know one thing for sure, it isn't over yet.
Andy
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Why am I not surprised. You are nothing more than an apologist for the legal system in this case. If it's legal, it must be right. Yeah, I realize that's a popular mentality these days. Not all of us share it.
Some of you guys (not necessarily you, Mark) act as if you don't defend UP's position, they'll sue YOU. What kind of world is this anyway?
Andy
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I wouldn't enter a wager on anything like this, there are too many variables and the outcome could be such that there isn't a clear winner.
Mark predicts that no protest will be made, no negative press will occur (outside of Hundman, which I hold in my hand and has obviously been published), that UP will continue on with their license agreement as-is, and that people will either comply or go away. His entire basis for this is that it has been some months since the implementation and no such protest or backlash has occurred yet, therefore it won't. I think that's pretty faulty logic.
Whatever protest does occur may not be substantial enough to get anyone's attention. Dunno... but I remember similar predictions with regard to Kalbach's affiliation with a certain upstart internet hobby retailer. I predicted Kalmbach would tiptoe away as if it never happened and there would be a sacrificial firing. Looks like I got that one right. Ok, not a firing just a "promotion" to "executive editor". Whatever.
Then again, maybe everyone is right. The system is just too big for us. One person, or ten, or a hundred, will never make a difference. Yep, that's it.... go back thousands of years in history, and you'll find not one example of a single person making a difference. LOL.
Andy
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more than a PRR model< Where this may start to really show is with these companies. First they are foreign, second there goods are _generally_ higher cost. The new Trix UP stuff may just evaporate (in the US) as you are looking at million dollar foreign companies here. It's pretty high priced to start with and adding UP graft may just make it not reasonable to sell in the US. Rather than play UP game they may just take the products off the market here. I'm sure they will still sell them in home markets and UP probably wouldn't stand a chance on their home turf. I do know that there are international laws but I also know the initials (for example) are not able to be copyrighted in foreign markets. Notice all American companies went to stylized initials a long time ago. TRW is a good example. So trying to inforce the limited use of UP (or any other railroad initials) outside the US would be a joke!
No, I agree but in this case, it will perpetuate...unfortunately. At best a "boycott" of items with unwarranted and excessive price increase by model manufacturers may see them "eat" the modest royalty usually applied at the wholesale price...not sure where it is with MRR items.
Seems from what I have read, some manufacturers have seen this as an opportunity to increase their profits above the modest royalty fee and, in a sense, ride the coattails of UP and possible others. A Pox on them more than UP!
Ray H.
One of the things about modern society that will never cease to amaze me. That not only have corporations convinced the public to advertise for them, names on shirts, etc. but they have convinced them to pay them to do it! Which brings me to the best tee shirt lettering I have seen in a long time; "I see dumb people"
Go to Walther's and look at the Athearn SD50's
UP, Rio Grande, C&NW Others (Conrail, NS, CB&O, CSX, undec) $104.98 $99.98
Is Walther's (CTA, gouging, ????) or are they passing on Athearn's pricing?
I'll take one. Unless of course the slogan has already been copyrighted and 50% of the purchase price goes to Ted Turner.
Andy
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I hear what you are saying but even at a meeting bringing up the licensing issue will meet with little opposition and interest. It will be like a police commissioner holding a press conference about a serial killer on the loose and then someone raises their hand and starts going off how jay walkers should be arrested.
Yes, the UP will probably be disappointed with what they collect from this, or we are all under estimating the amount of UP stuff that is sold. Assume everything sold with UP (see my other post on the acquired RRs) on it generates 50 cents to the UP and 500,000 items are sold a year. That's $250,000 a year in revenue. Assume it takes a clerical person at $40K a year, about $30K of company lawyer time a year, and about $10K in misc. That's $80K in expenses and about $170,000 in profit (before taxes). That's worth it for them to continue. And that's what the stockholders will be looking at. My numbers are probably not entirely accurate and based on some assumptions but if you tweak them a little you can see where they are coming from. They don't have to make anything or carry any inventory through licensing. Their logo has value and if they just charge for its use they make money.
Bottom line is it is about the money for the UP.
CBix
This may well be the outcome, but that's why I'm in favor of a media campaign and stockholders initiative rather than a boycott. Boycotts for the most part don't work, and in a small market primarily harm the wrong people. So lest anyone thinks I'm in favor of a boycott, I'm not. However if I were a manufacturer, at this point I will be suspending sale and production of any UP-lettered merchandise until this is settled.
Andy
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I haven't had much opportunity to discuss this with any retailers, although I'm sure I will. I'm not a UP modeler myself, but confess to owning some UP rolling stock and even a few locomotives. UP did pool power with the N&W in the 1970s so an SD40 or SD40-2 is a legitimate thing to have floating in the fleet. I don't expect to be paying any retroactive royalties on those locomotives! However, I will think twice about buying any UP lettered products in the future especially from manufacturers who were early and easy surrenders. As I said, I'm not drumming for a boycott, but at the same time, I'd balk at buying something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth as anything yellow would at this time.
I've written to a handful of businesses I've given up on in recent years. The hard copy letter is a last resort. I've written them to Value City, Lucor (Jiffy Lube), Dave & Busters, and Sears. The letters are factual and state my experience, and basically say "You're fired". Two of them responded with coupons for free service or product; I returned the coupons along with a restatement "you're fired" and that I wasn't writing them a letter to get free stuff, nor to offer a second chance. I'm sure all of my correspondence found its way to the round file and it's quite obvious had no impact on their business whatsoever. But I don't regret investing the time it took to write the letters.
In the past decade I've communicated a great deal with hobby manufacturers. I know them personally in many cases, and have something closer to a friendly relationship with many of them than I have with those listed above, or ever will. Yet none of my criticisms have ever made a difference there either. They have made it clear to me through words and actions (or inaction) that my voice is in an extreme minority and doesn't affect their bottom line. I accept that, but it doesn't mean they get a free ride as long as I have a voice. I might be the only person in the world who thinks the Broadway Limited N&W Class A is overpriced, runs poorly, and in general wishes he'd saved the money for something else. But even if all 9,999 email me and tell me how full of it I am and what a great product it is, it won't change my experience or my opinion.
So that's basically it. It's not a world issue. I also happen to hate mayonnaise (and mayo clones and lookalikes). I know I'll never get mayonnaise banned from sandwich shops, or taken off the market. But I can also assure you I'll never eat any.
Andy
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Disagree. Any money to ted Turner is OK with me provided he dedicates it a fund to re-purchase the Atlanta Braves Baseball team from AOL/TW. :)
Ray H.
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