Re: New Rivarossi 60' Passenger Cars

I looked at these cars with interest. They appear to be updates of the 40 year old Walthers metal-sided "Shorty" passenger cars. The new Rivarossi cars appear to be based on the same C&NW prototypes as the old Walthers cars - full RPOs in the 9413-33 series, baggage cars in various 87xx series, combines in various batches in the 74xx series, and coaches in several groups numbered between 3088 and 3306 (the photos and car listing indicate Rivarossi used accurate numbers on the C&NW cars). The RPOs and baggage cars (with 6 wheel trucks) were in general passenger service, while the 4 wheel truck combines and coaches were used primarily (perhaps exclusively) in Chicago commuter service. The 4 car types would rarely have been used together, as the commuter runs did not carry RPOs, and the combines provided sufficient baggage space for the commuter trains. But with their similar appearance, they do look good together on a model RR, and particularly one with tighter curves. All the cars date from the 1920's. The 60' commuter cars were replaced and scrapped as the 85' bi-level cars began being delivered in 1956. I believe the many of the RPOs and baggage cars survived into the 1960s. Up until the mid-1950's, the C&NW Chicago commuter trains were being hauled by light pacifics in the E and E-1 classes, when they replaced by GP's and F's.

To my knowledge, neither the ATSF or CB&Q used 60' heavyweight combines or coaches. The RPOs and baggage cars were more ubiquitous and are probably like cars rostered by ATSF and CB&Q. All photos I recall of similar ATSF cars were "Pullman" green, as were CB&Q cars through WWII. Many older CB&Q head end cars were repainted an aluminum color in the 50's and 60's so they would not stand out so prominently when run in trains of fluted-side stainless steel cars. But even in the late 50's and early 60's, I remember a couple Q steam fan trips where they were still able to assemble a complete green heavyweight train - my few photos from those trips where my "people filter" was really working look just like old Lucius Beebe steam portraits. GQ

A few quick questions regarding the NEW Rivarossi 60' passenger cars [as > shown on page 15 in the 2/04 MR]. > > 1) Specifically, what engine would be used to pull the ATSF or the > Burlington version? > 2) Was the ATSF version [prototype] and the Burlington version > [prototype] really the same green color, or did Rivarossi simply choose > a color and apply it to both roadnames? > 3) What era [time frame] is suitable for these 60' passenger cars? > > Many Thanks! > Matt >
Reply to
Geezer
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Excellent. Thank you. I will look to add a single car of each style to the Fast Freight Express that we are assembling.

Reply to
Matt Brennan

The short combine and coaches were used on locals - look at some of the C&NW picture books that are out. You will find locals passing through Wisconsin with those headend cars and the coaches. IIRC, there was even a 60' combine painted in the yellow/green 400 colors. These cars will be a welcome addition, the Milwaukee had very similar coaches with 6 wheel trucks. The coaches/combine they modeled appear to be C&NW specific, but maybe we will see other 'old' passenger cars brought out by Walthers.

Jim Bernier

Geezer wrote:

Reply to
Jim Bernier

So called, "Pullman Green" was the most common color on passenger cars from the turn of the century until after WWII. Regardless of railroad. Premier Name trains got the pretty paint. Everyday trains got Pullman Green. /Partly/ because that green was the official color for Pullman which owned and operated most sleeping cars until after WWII. A railroad had to be mighty big to get Pullman to specially paint Pullman cars for a specific train.

CTucker NY

Reply to
Christian

Jim Bernier wrote: [snip]

I'm looking forward to these cars, specifically the RPO and the baggage. The baggage appears to be a newer heavyweight than the Rivarossi heavyweight baggage and has lines more typical of the 60-foot(+/-) baggage cars which lasted in service into the 1960s and 1970s than the Rivarossi model. I'll have to dig up some four-wheel trucks for these.

Off the top of my head, the RPO is a match or near-match for RPOs that the C&O and the Wabash used, and I /think/ the B&O, Southern and L&N.

Too bad they're not running undecs (yet?)-- I don't care for stripping cars, but I'll need to before I paint up one in Wabash.

Between these cars and the upcoming Branchline coaches (actually shown at the RPM meet in Cocoa Beach last weekend!), it's going to be a lot easier to make up some decent-looking typical heavyweight consists that don't look as much like a boxed set.

-fm Perpetrator of the Haggis Decal Project, at

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Reply to
Fritz Milhaupt

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 00:21:44 UTC, "Christian" wrote: 2000

Espee used dark olive which was not Pullman green.

Reply to
Ernie Fisch

Does anyone know for sure what the prototypes (if any) for these cars are?

I did a cursory look through a bunch of my GN and PRR materials and could not find a believable match for any of them. PRR had so much stuff there may be some hope there. On the GN the baggages and RPOs all seem to have had differing door locations, and the coaches all have vestibules on BOTH ends.

They LOOK like nice cars, but where can they, reasonably correctly, be used?

There is, of course, the possibility of running non-home-road equipment in many trains, especially sleepers and head-end equipment.

Dan Mitchell ==========

Fritz Milhaupt wrote:

Reply to
Daniel A. Mitchell

Yes, but even 'pullman green' varied with era, railroad, and weathering.

What's WORSE, paint formula records indicate that real 'pullman green' wasn't GREEN at all. It was a mixture of lamp black (carbon) and YELLOW. So, it was actually a DARK yellowish black. But it did take on a greenish cast under some weathering and lighting conditions.

Many railroads used multiple colors, or types of paint on the same car. The GN, for example, in heavyweight days seems to have used 'pullman green' for the sides of the cars, and 'dark green truck enamel' (whatever THAT was) for the underbody and trucks. The roofs may, or may not, have been either black, 'pullman green', or 'dark green truck enamel'. The GN buffs are still squabbling over these details.

In later years (more the lightweight era) MANY railroads had a color they often referred to as "pullman green', and these were often some kind of dark olive green. The so called "Empire Builder" green on the GN was of this nature.

Unless you can nail it down to ONE car on ONE day you'll go NUTS tying to create 'generic' colors like 'pullman green' that work for all railroads in all eras and circumstances. Close, maybe, Really correct, no.

Dan Mitchell ==========

Ernie Fisch wrote:

Reply to
Daniel A. Mitchell

These are CNW prototypes, but similar cars were widely used, especially the baggage and rpo.

Reply to
Brian Paul Ehni

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