Re: Number of electrical blocks?

One wire?

So if someone hooks up only two wires, will DCC be able to keep the locomotive at a constant speed better than just DC?

And just to have some reason for someone to do this:-) The person doing this is using a RTR Locomotive out of the box that a DCC decoder can be used just by plugging it in. This person is trying to sell DCC systems and is trying to show how well DCC is or is not better:-)

Please keep this simple: Just a loop of track on a flat surface. Not racing the locomotive at top speed. Donald

Sure, I'm game!

Is this a typical US prototype railroad situation?

Of course it can - just put an Kleinbahn model (an Austrian model railway manufacturer who has always wired their locos for +ve left rail forward running) on the track.

I'm still wondering what prototypical railway would put 10 independent locomotives on an oval of track? Ignoring the "oval" for the moment, the prototype railway is either going to couple all 10 locos together or divide the track into separate blocks, each one controlled by a signal. If one has all ten locos coupled together then control is simpler with analogue.

If one has ten locos on eleven blocks then analogue control is no more complex than DCC.

racing the locomotive at top speed. Donalddivide the track into separate blocks, each one controlled by a signal.

I don't have much recent experience of toy train sets.

I'm a simple guy - one train at a time is all I can do justice to.

Train orders allow ten trains in one section of track?

Around here they were using tablet machines - something like train orders but without the writing and human error components. The purpose was to restrict line usage to one train per block/section.

Maybe not with ten trains, but I have seen one railroad run three trains one after the other with the conductors in control of each train. The front train had clearance from Portal to Minot. The other two had radio blocking following the train in front of it. Your basic "Do not run into the train in front of you". The only signal on this Division is the one controling the diamond in Minot and that is run by another railroad.

So all your locomotives run at the same speed at the same DC voltage. Could you tell me how you do this as mine do not.

What do you use for emergency shutdown?

Donald ps: Gregory why don't you answer my question about just one locomotive on one track?

pss: Maybe Gregory has me in his kill file so maybe someone else could repost for him:-)

AHA ! Not everyone suffers from this malady. With my Digitrax DT300, I can control the pulling engine on the front and the banker on the rear independently, simultaneously, WITH ONE HAND (! ! !) such that the slack, or runout, in the train's consist is perfectly balanced. The locos do not have to be balanced or matched. They do not even require similar running characteristics. I can repeatedly choose any two locos, at random and accomplish this act with equal felicity. Then, after the train reaches the top of the grade, I can stop,( anywhere in the vicinity ) cut off the banking engine and let it return back downhill while the train continues in its original direction. It is utterly impossible to do that on a purely direct current model railway with only two wires attached to the tracks.

.....................F>

Sorry Greg, My error I owe you one for that.

OK Greg, Yes, that is the proper way to do it, but that is splitting hairs for the purposes of this discussion. We can assume that there is a current buss in place and that there are two main, heavy gauge, low resistance wires under each rail one for North or ( + ) and the other for South or ( - ) For your DC railroad you may have a single DPDT switch at the power supply output to control polarity to the rails so that you can go in either direction. I do not need even that. Now, from the power supply, run one wire to the N buss and another to the S buss and we are finished. We have satisfied the requirement of having the entire railroad supplied by only two wires.

You can operate one locomotive at a time. If you try to put two of them on the railroad they will both respond more or less equally to any change in throttle setting, and will not be independently controllable.

Now, with my system, several operators may plug in and independently control several locos simultaneously all in the same electrical block; since there is only one block, which is the entire railroad.

While this is not the ideal method for running a DCC railroad, You should have several electrical zones so that a short circuit in one does not disable the entire system, it illustrates the point that it can be done. It cannot be done with a DC configuration. I do not have a single electrical switch anywhere on the railroad, because I do not need one. Not even an ON/OFF switch since I can even do that from the handheld throttle. This DCC is real cool stuff man. You need to try it.

..............F>

Fer cryin' outloud Greg. I do it at least once a week at our weekly meets. So do many of the others. There's nothing to it. You can drive a manual shift automobile can't you?

Lessee.....One hand on the wheel, one hand on the shifter, one hand to work the headlight dimmer, one foot on the gas, one foot on the clutch, one eye on the road ahead, one eye on the speedometer, one eye on the tach, one eye on the rear view mirror...........whoa......this sounds like its impossible to drive a standard shift car. No one has enough hands or eyes.

Do you SWEAR that you are not Flynn's brother? Are you Flynn posting under an alias? I see that your ISP is in NZ, but that could be a dodge

Fer cryin' out loud W H A T limitations? What in the name of ( insert favorite item ) are you talking about- limitations? Limiting myself to minimum torture inflicted by NOT having to engineer a wiring system for a DC railroad. Limiting myself to drastically reduced construction time, expense and maintenance? Limiting myself to being able to perform any function anywhere on the railroad instead of at an exact pre-determined spot? Limiting myself to having my operating schedule infinitely flexible instead of rigidly fixed and unacceptably- and artificially- choreographed? Limiting operation of the railroad to not more than 200 simultaneous operators? Limiting myself to operating the trains instead of operating the electrical crap that makes the railroad work? I worked on the railroad and I know that every move is not always made exactly the same way in exactly the same place every single time. Even when it is, it isn't. I am getting RID of limitations man, not accepting them.

If you model in a scale smaller than Z, or if you model some arcane and obscure sub-miniature equipment; for example, Zn3 track speeders, then you might have a problem getting a decoder mounted. If you model any scale from 1:160 on up, you can likely find a decoder that will fit. This is the only limitation that I can find, and it doesn't apply to me. I model North American and Australian prototype in 1:87 scale. I cannot discover the limitations to which you allude. In fact, I cannot even dream one up that is reasonable.

...............F>

The railroad that does this is Canadian Pacific Railroad and the other railroad is BNSF. Both as you can tell are Class ONE's so this is not some minor railroad cutting corners:-)

They do this often up here; daily as matter of fact:-) Most often just two trains but sometimes up to four trains (Normal max number during a period of time). The crews even ask if they can do it.

The dispatcher has an easier time as he can tell numerous trains to go from point A to point B at the same time and only have to tell them one time. The conductors and the engineers know how to do radio blocking. The engineer will tell the conductor if he has safe spacing (about five miles) for normal stopping and will slow down/stop if he doesn't. The conductor will keep enough radio traffic with the train in front of him to ensure that the two trains maintain about the same speed.

The first train gets a track warrant from point A to Point B. The following trains maintain radio contact with lead train in order to maintain safe spacing. If radio contact is lost then the second train stops until he can verify where the lead train is by radio.

Okay it is a block system but the blocks moves with the front train and not some place on the ground like a dispatcher has to use. The trains move faster and easier as they do not have to stop and get a new track warrant when following a train and no cross traffic against them.

Again there are no controlling signals on this mainline except the one crossing the diamond that is controlled by a second railroad. The conductors assume responsibility to maintain safe operating conditions. If for any reason one of the trains doesn't want to do it then they don't do it.

Donald btw: Be careful of what you say as some of it might not be the way you think it is:-)

Okay then this is just big talk as you don't know if running TEN Locomotives with analogue is possible.

Donald Getting the facts straight:-)

Okay maybe your news server lost it:-) Here it is again:

So if someone hooks up only two wires, will DCC be able to keep the locomotive at a constant speed better than just DC?

And just to have some reason for someone to do this:-) The person doing this is using a RTR Locomotive out of the box that a DCC decoder can be used just by plugging it in. This person is trying to sell DCC systems and is trying to show how well DCC is or is not better:-)

Please keep this simple: Just a loop of track on a flat surface. Not racing the locomotive at top speed. Donald

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OK, it's a major railway cutting corners.

They do the same thing here - WC runs our railway. They have stuffed up big-time on several occassions. (well, I call a head-on collision a major stuff-up)

How do they know where they are? The last head-on here came about because one driver mistook his position and carried on past the passing point.

Back to my question - how does the driver know his position without reference to some place on the ground? How does the following driver know the distance he is maintaining?

Our railways overcame the stop back around 1890 with tablet exchanges on the fly.

You're back to complete reliance on individual human operators with no fail safe mechanisims.

Good advice - perhaps you should heed it ;-)

The limit on my (under construction) layout will be around 13 locos. That's assuming two trains with five locos each and three other locos. That would assume five operators.

I assume the sentence ending in "?" was the question.

I answered:

I don't know of any prototypical situation where ten locos would be running individually in the same section of track at the same moment so I'm quite happy to accept that as a limitation on my model railway. Yes, it is a limitation of analogue.

I actually have a Trix EMF controller (and loco) which allows a second loco to operate individually with an analogue loco on a single piece of track. It uses a 14kHz AC signal imposed on DC to run the decodered loco. The standard DC locos cannot "see" the 14kHz signal.

And having a train follow another just by having the crews looking at blocks signals is safer how?

Radio blocking is not used when trains are going in different directions, only for two or more trains going in the same direction. If there is a train going in the other direction then that train gets to sit in a siding until all the trains using radio blocking passes it.

btw: what is WC?

Mile markers and there is no passing allowed:-) The first train got there first and the second train cannot pass. If the first train has to stop for any reason he tells the other trains what he is doing by using the radio, the following trains can only go up to where they know the train has passed by, if the second train doesn't hear from the first train it stops.

By using the mile markers. Yes they are on the ground but the idea is that the block that the train in front moves with the train and not just a signal that might be been passed by the front train 30 minutes before hand.

Well if you don't have signals on the ground you have to stop at certain locations until you get the dispatcher to allow you to go further. The dispatcher like to give a track warrant for the biggest block that they can which could be 20-30 miles in length. If you happen to be the second train you have to wait until the first train clears its track warrant before the dispatcher will let you enter that section of track. With radio blocking the second train's crew decides the safe distance it requires, most of the time it is about 5 miles, depending on the weather and how the train is handling.

When there is a trainee learning on how to do radio blocking there are two experienced members in the Locomotive. I was talking to one engineer last night on the taxi run. He told me a story of when he was helping to train a conductor. The trainee copied the wrong mile post and the enginner proceded to stop the train right then. At the mile post that the trainee wrote down the enginner then asked him what to do. Both the engineer and the actual conductor both knew that the trainee messed up but rules say "Trainee was in control for training and what the trainee says is what will go if the crew feels it is safe in doing so". The enginner and conductor had to explain what happen and then streesed the point of making sure of where the other train is. It would not have mattered if the trainee copied the mile post wrong in the wrong direction as the enginneer would have stopped anyhow and asked how fast the front train was travelling and how it could cover that many miles in so many minutes....

Huh, Some person has to put the brakes on, I have not heard of any signal that will stop a train by itself.

True, but after talking with the crews on the long taxi drives, I think I am saying things correctly:-)

Okay so how do you get five locos matched in speed with the same DC signal?

Forget the ten locos. Just one Locomotive on one track with just two wires going from the power pack to the tracks, No extra feeders. Which train will go up and down the track at the same speed?

Is it this one?

Indeed, yes. Once you do it the first time you will see how easy it is. It isn't rocket science. All the rocket science is taken care of by the controller and the CPU.

Not meaning to get rude, just never thought I'd see another mind of the same set. The parallels are unmistakable. I actually kind of like T.F. He's just a bit misguided in a few minor areas.;-)

railway operates.

No, no, a thousand times no. It most certainly is not. No railway in NZ or OZ operates by regulating the power to the tracks to control the trains. The trains are controlled by the drivers inside the locomotives who are responsible for obeying the operating rules. They must stop when so signaled or instructed by train order, or token, etc.; and they must know where they are in order to carry out many of their duties. They must know the location of every signal, token station, turnout, curve, industry and much more.

It is the rules that determine whether you operate in a prototypical manner or not, not the electrical operating system. Any prototype engine driver can opt to disobey the rules at any time and nothing can stop him. Any control system that takes control and responsibility away from the engine driver is patently un -prototypical. It may make you feel safer about your models, but it is none the less un-prototypical. So then, if you want to argue prototypicality, you must allow the engine driver to be burdened with the responsibility of knowing how to operate correctly. The system of operation matters not. However, with DCC it is most necessary that the operators be knowledgeable about your style or method of operation and that they be conversant with a set of regulations regarding the execution of the same. There is no "dead zone" to protect them; only a red light or, in some cases, nothing beyond familiarity with the geography of the railway.

This is precisely why I have written a book of model railway operating rules based on North American practice, (reasonable enough since that's where we all are). My operating group uses it and it has been adopted by others as well. This book covers operation by block control, track warrant, timetable-train order, automatic block, and remote/centralized traffic control. All the styles of operation commonly used in NA are covered in it. This rule book and a DCC system are the perfect marriage for a group interested in truly prototypical operations. Simply being a model railway carries with it inherent limitations. A well thought out, documented set of operating rules, combined with at least one rules class per year (which is itself a fun social event) and a DCC system makes for the most enjoyable operating sessions you can imagine. All the dispatchers, train drivers and yardmasters have to worry about is driving the trains. There is no thought whatever needed to be given to the electrical operation of the tracks. It is, in fact the closest thing you will ever get to purely prototypical operations as long as you are dealing with an electrically powered model railway. Light years ahead of user operated electrical blocks, cab controls and such paraphernalia.

Greg...........If you enjoy wiring and configuring user operated block control, great. If you want to stick needles under your fingernails and through your earlobes, by all means, go right ahead. It's your pleasure. I do not want to deny you anything. Why do you want to inflict me with the torture of wiring a model railway for DC control when it is so clearly more difficult and so clearly less prototypical? I won't even go into the limitations of a DC system as I would be here all day and most of the night delineating them. You would perish from ennui trying to read them.

OUTSTANDING question. On most North American railways (remember, I am a North American) trains operating in non-signaled territory are required to extinguish the headlight when clear of the main track to meet another train. If the superior train is the first to arrive at a designated meeting point, the turnout must be lined and locked to the siding and the headlight extinguished.

Easy enough to do on a DC railway also, right? There is more....... If the train (either situation) is not in the clear on both ends, then the headlight must NOT be extinguished. This is the signal to the opposing train that the track at the other end of the siding is fouled. NOT so easy with DC now, is it?

For example: when adding a banking engine, I do not have to stop exactly at the spot marked "X" such that my wheels will be clear of the insulated joint, but the coupler will extend beyond it. Such a requirement would not be tolerated on an actual full-size railway. I need merely to be at the correct place, more or less, and stop while the banker couples up to me. Easy enough on a DC railway when the banking engine goes on the rear, but a major problem when it has to go on the front.

To believe that every engine driver could always stop his train at exactly the same spot every time smacks of naïveté. I have been an engine driver and I can tell you it is not possible. Steam engines almost always uncoupled from their trains when they had to stop at the tank to get a drink of water. You can position a light engine under the tank. You cannot position a fifty-car train under one. By the same logic, you cannot precisely stop a freight train with the coupler sticking out over the insulated joint. My evil twin brother maintains that HIS railway always added bankers in precisely the same spot every time. Hogwash & horse feathers! They always added bankers at the same station, but within a span of several hundred metres. Not at the spot marked "X"

There are other examples to be cited, but I am an ADD and my attention span is beginning to grow short here.

Meaning, of course, that I can operate as many locos as necessary. I can have one or four jobs working in a large yard. A yardmaster keeps them busy and they just have to avoid running into each other. No different than working in a large marshaling yard in Auckland or Invercargill. There is no thought given to who has electrical control of which track. There is no electrical control. The engine driver merely makes sure that he adheres to safe operating practices.

operation to

prototype work

Refer to my note regarding the needles..........

One of the wonderful things about DCC is that it allows the operator the freedom to forget about driving the railroad. One hundred per-cent of the operators energy can be devoted to operating his train. You do not have to remember to release blocks, you do not have to be concerned that you will run into a block that was not released by a previous operator. You do not have to advance blocks ahead of your train. You have only to concentrate on operating your train. This is not anything like operating a slot car, it is more like operating a real locomotive. The DC system is more like operating a nuclear reactor. Throwing switches, pushing buttons, throwing more switches and then pushing more buttons. In a DC system, your limits are set by the electrical limitations of the wiring design. In the DCC system your limits are set by the operating rules. By the way.......same as it is in the prototype.;-)

Then you need to admit that you are not operating as the prototype, but, in reality, protecting your models against operators who are not properly trained or interested in true prototype ops. Yours is not an operating system, it is a protection system

Block operation is a system of rules, not an electrical philosophy. For us, the fun is in prototypical operation, not in unprototypical control of power distribution to the rails.

A DCC system is [philosophically] operated exactly the same as the prototype. The engine driver is responsible for knowing the rules of operation and adhering to them. I already covered this earlier.

Cheers......................F>