Re: Number of electrical blocks?

Yes, but Cap'n Handbrake has NO toggle switches, NO relays, NO computers, NO programming of a control system.

How many need to be installed to accomplish the same on your railroad?

What he ~does~ have is an operation method that perfectly mimics prototypical North American train operation, within the constraints of

1:87 modeling. And all he did was unpack the kit and hook two wires between the layout and the control box.

operation to

prototype work

Uh, Greg, you're talking to a trained signal

operation to

prototype work

Uh, Greg, you're talking to a trained signal

{dammit, software, let me finish}

Uh, Greg, you're talking to a trained signal maintainer ~and~ locomotive engineer, who worked for a major US railroad. I rather suspect he knows enough about what wires make a train go to know what aspect can safely be ignored...

Huh? What kind of block? The kind where you flip little switches?

Greg, a few weeks ago, you posted a list of ten limitations. Every one was refuted, and your lack of knowledge was exposed. Why do you continue to troll these same waters?

Never mind, I don't care any more. I can only hope that people seeking unbiased information read the ~complete~ thread...

One modifies them ahead of time. They don't have to be precise so long as they will run together without bucking. With locos front and rear of a train, the front locos will haul as much of the train as they can, so long as they are faster, while the rear locos will push as much as they can. Too a degree the system is self balancing. The crunch comes when either the front locos pull the entire train plus the rear locos or the rear locos push the entire train against the front locos. Any loco that can't be used gets rebuilt.

Regards, Greg.P.

will be clear of the insulated joint< I have found the problem Froggy. You apparently have not flown over OZ and noticed all the big red "Xs" on the tracks there!

The toy train.

That won't come up for me - Uhlenbrock might well do something similar to the old Trix system. Trix had only one decoder "channel" imposed on the DC signal. I've played with several frequencies but the decoders keep getting bigger :-) It's good for a yard loco to give access to the entire station area.

Sure, but it retains block operation. The Fleischmann FMZ system did much the same thing but with 99 locos - digital rather than separate frequencies - they've fallen for the DCC standardization due to costs of a separate system.

Greg.P.

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 21:52:22 UTC, snipped-for-privacy@dsl.pipex.com (Keith Norgrove) wrote: 2000

Everything plugs into loconet, throttles, boosters etc. Just run loconet around your layout and you can connect all the control stuff.

........OH....... My error.

But wait....we're in NZ right now. Do they have the "X"s too? It's been thirty years since I was there. A lot could have changed.

...........F>

[ with pre-formed and assembled cables and plug-in connectors...F]

All you need is a screwdriver and a Yankee. And you don't really NEED the Yankee, it just makes screwing easier. You don't have to push as hard and you don't split as many holes.

.................F>

It is always better to do point and counterpoint than it is to flame or be dogmatic. I want to do a counterpoint to this posting, but it will have to be later tonight. For now, I will just say that I have read it and will respond in more detail.

Because my interest and experience is North American, and because my interest does not encompass European railways and practices, you may need to offer more information. For instance, signalmen. In North America the signalmen do not operate signals. They merely construct or test and maintain them. Virtually all N.A. signals are self-operating, and have been for most of living memory. Exceptions are interlocking plants and some remote control locations. Out on line of road on a CTC railroad, the route is set by the dispatcher and the signals set themselves accordingly. Everything these days is determined by the operating logic. The dispatcher cannot choose a signal, he can only choose a route. Such has been the case, mostly, for more than 70 years.

Later.................F>

IIRC:

1 - the $$$ to convert an existing fleet was conceded as a potential barrier for some individuals. 2 - Engines which cannot be converted (or extremely difficult to convert) was another possible impediment to conversion to DCC.

If you refute GP then he wanders off to some other dialog but, eventually ends up, having gone around the barn, back at a familiar point and repeats his claims. I don't know if he can't remember being at this point, and being refuted, or if he thinks everyone else has forgotten?

I think he rather enjoys being a twit.

Paul

Wow, can I drive your train, Mister? huh? Please?

railroad operation to

prototype work

Yeah, I noticed that!

Those of us who aren't trained signal maintainers don't neccessarily want to avoid the aspects of railroading that he might find excruciatingly boring. I was responsible for around 50% of container movements between New Zealand and Europe for about

8 years - very much like freight car allocation on modern railroads - I chose to model the era pre ISO containers!

No, the kind that allows prototype trains to follow closely, one behind the other, with the minimum of hassle on intensively operated main lines.

My "lack of knowledge" comes from attempting to institute DCC operation on my layout. I've had DCC since 1995, given several clinics at national conventions and been fitting decoders for payment for the last 8/9 years. DCC/Maerklin/FMZ/Zero1. I've built 5 layouts with digital control, three for other people, and assisted with installation on a number of others. Saying "WRONG" is barely refuting my points - perhaps those limitations don't affect you, but they are a quick and dirty listing of problems I have encountered over the years plus the limitations that stop me implimenting DCC on my present main layout.

OK, so you're happy - you run off and tell everyone that DCC is problem free - ignore the limitations.

Go check out Japanese railway stations - check out the way that the doors line up with the painted lines on the platforms. Check out France and Germany - the platform boards tell you where to stand for any given destination, the carriage door will be within a meter of where they say it will be when the train stops. A big "X" would measure 1.435 x 1.435 meters square. But don't trust me, go check it out for yourself - I bet you take home a Roco or Fleischmann model of one of the locos you see too!

Regards, Greg.P.

There's an unmistakeable light shining at eye height, rather than a distance board at ground level that requires the extra input of another driver in a remote train plus a mathematical calculation to figure one's own proper position. That's four steps, each one capable of being incorrect.

Add train control to the signal system and you have a near foolproof system.

Radio blocking is a means of controlling trains in both directions.

Radio blocking assumes that two people and two radios work on tasks other than train driving. :-)

Sure, I did put in the smiley.

No signals! It's all radio plus GPS locating for the dispatcher.

Ground fog and long stretches of similar terrain.

Hell, the trains would never complete their runs!

You're back to the stoneage!

We're talking to different situations between my models (German 1923-32) and New Zealand rail. It depends which section in NZ we're discussing. Christchurch-Dunedin-Invercargill has been designalled to US standards with a dispatcher at Christchurch. Christchurch-Dunedin has signalling in daylight hours - radio blocking at night. Dunedin-Invercargill (the site of the head-on accident) has radio blocking 24 hours per day.

Your trains run at 4 mph????

I'm not aware of any accidents in the period of tablet operation due to the tablet malfunctioning, or from one being ignored. (In NZ) Thats around 100 years of operation!

The terrain is fairly lumpy and the coupler strength is a major limitation.

Been there, done that! :-)

In my modelling era: steam. Today: Electric and Diesel.

I agreed.

If you can see the light in the fog:-) How hard is it to subract or add 5 to any number?

Well if you can control the train from some office building then you can do away with hte conductor and engineer. Like that is going to happen on the mainlines like in about thousands years or so:-)

Not here. Radio blocking is the way the dispatcher lets the trains control themselves. The lead train is controlled by the dispatcher as to how far down the track he can go. The lead train then lets others behind him into his block. If the lead train has a track warrant for 50 miles and his train is only a 5-10 thousand feet long he can with radio blocking let other trains into his block thathe is done using.

You are right but there are four people doing this. Two conductors and two engineers. The engineers will tell the conductor what they consider is safe and the conductor will listen. The engineers drive the train and will know where they are. The conductors will know where they are becuase there is nothing else for the conductor to do but look out the window and see what is going on:-)

And this is safer than talking to the train in front of you:-)

And the engineer didn't feel the switch when he passed over it....

Sure they do, but sometimes it takes more than one crew in order to get it done:-)

Nah, maybe the ice ages:-)

More like 25-45 mph.

Back to radio blocking. The way you have been describibg it it sounds like the dispatcher uses the radio to pass track warrants to the trains in blocks of track which are controlled by lights. This is just the normal way the dispatcher tells the trains where to go. The dispatcher keeps track of where the trains are and where trains can go.

Up here radio blocking is used to let the trains control where they are.

Donald

Yup, happens all the time. We have Dispatchers and Towermen, or Operators. Signalmen and Signal Maintainers are analogues to your Technicians.

It depends on region. In the Northeast US it was begun in the '20s. In other places there is still unsignalled main track in daily use. During my driving days I operated in every type of territory that there was, from CTC to dark. When I first wrote the above, I wrote 50. Then I thought, "No, I'd better say

70, since someone will surely point out that the first efforts to create centralized control go all the way back to the 20s." It's a no-win thing, dontcha see?

.....................F>