Gentlemen,
For my Lister L I have to make a fuel tank, I have the means of rolling a tube but what I have never done is make flanged discs, anybody done this. I also have the choice of copper sheet or steel copper would be easier to work I think.
Martin P
The lister D tank is shaped with a flattened side, so that complicates things a bit. For what they cost, I'd go to Frank Gelder and get one already made up.
Copper is slightly easier but work hardens, steel is more difficult to solder, but if you keep it clean and use a decent flux it should be UK. Tinned steel plate is nice if you can get it, galvanised is almost as good, or even Zintec, but can be a pain to primer up before painting.
Peter
-- Peter A Forbes Prepair Ltd, Luton, UK snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk
Nice thought buying one but making it carries a certain feeling of I did that :-)) How could I easily create a flange?
Mart> >
The best way to make a flange, Martin, is by turning up a former. All you'd need is a bit of oak or other hardwood and turn it to the correct profile. The D tank (well named!) is a bit more difficult, but shouldn't take long to make, especially if you have a jig saw.
Screw it securely to a post a BIT smaller than the former & clamp the sheet to it with as many G clamps as you can put your hands on. Use a hammer (panel beaters is best, but any fairly smooth faced hammer will do) to fold the edge over.
TA-DA!
It will take a bit of experimentation and care and if you are using brass or copper, you'll need to anneal it constantly, but it is neither rocket science nor yet cheese making! Be prepared to chuck a few away if you are not used to tin bashing, so steel is a better option than brass or copper.
BTW, you really don't need heavy gauge material as the shape of the tank and the flanged edge will add strength.
Regards,
Kim Siddorn
In message , Prepair Ltd writes
Related but a bit off-topic: I've got a couple of stub ends of 15 mm copper tubing coming from the heating coil in the calorifier of my boat. The copper is as soft as butter - I can squeeze it out of shape with my fingers. Is there a recommended heat treatment for hardening it up to take a compression fitting? The last fitting, that I've just had to remove, was OK but the assembly was very vulnerable to damage by even a gentle knock.
Wassail!
Martin, I would think that because it is attached to a heat source it would stay permanently maleable, a compression fitting should not be a problem sealing but if it does a couple of turns of PTFE tape will help.
Mart> In message , Prepair Ltd
In message , Campingstoveman writes
Martin,
The heater coil is only running at 80 C or so - doubt if that would keep it malleable. (It's actually the stub ends from a "Salamander" - a heating loop devised to fit into the socket normally occupied by an immersion heater). My current thoughts are that, if there isn't an appropriate heat treatment, to give it rigidity it might be worth adding an insert such as is used with plastic pipe fittings. I'd use actual plastic fittings if I could, but they're quite bulky and the pipes are probably too close together. Plenty of Boss White ought to then do the trick, as the operating pressure is only a couple of psig.
Wassail!
No. Age will harden it a little, but really you need to work harden it. This is likely to do more harm than good.
Compression joints don't leak from too-soft tubing anyway (they're regularly applied next to a freshly-soldered and freshly-annealed piece of pipe). Although the pipe may deform more than usual and the olive less so, you still get a good seal.
Martin,
I have done a little flanging work for the tender tank on the roller. Different in lots of ways (5mm steel for a start) but a lot of the same principles apply I am sure.
For the former itself, I would use steel, obviously sized smaller by the material thickness. One of the problems we found, was the workpiece shrunk when cooled onto the former, so we drilled holes around the edge of the former and welded nuts over the holes, so we could then wind the work off when formed, without damage.
I think you will find that the copper will bend up cold, but as it work hardens, you will need to anneal at regular intervals. Steel of course is heated at all times during the process, the heat should be applied to the back of the flange you are forming. We used a wooden mallet to bend the material, I would aim to hit the back of the flange to bring it over slowly, working around the circle.
We found with the thick steel that we ended up with a slight bow on the finished article, due to shrinkage around the flange. This was eased a little by peining around the flange edge with a copper dolly, to stretch the flange our. I don't think you will get this problem though with thinner softer material.
As I say, this was really a different exercise to what you are doing, but it may be of some help. A couple of photos are on the webpage showing the former.
Chris Bedo Kent UK
snipped-for-privacy@tiscali.co.uk
IIRC copper is not a good material to hold petrol as there is some sort of reaction which occurs. Isn't that why fuel lines are made of steel nowadays? Mike in BC
Petrol reacting with copper? News to me - not that I'm denying it, you understand, just never heard of it before. All the fuel lines on my engines are copper with the exception of the Crossley 1075 which has brass fuel pipe and I have a couple of Stuart Turner marines with copper fuel tanks.
That said, petrol has changed a lot in content in recent years and there may well now be a significant reason for avoiding it whereas once there was not. However, I suspect that the price of copper versus that of steel has something to do with the choices, too !
I tend to turn the petrol off and run the carb dry when stopping an engine at the end of the day, as there certainly seems to be some kind of reaction with the zinc alloys used for die cast carburettor bodies if petrol is allowed to go stale in the carb. But I always leave a little fuel in the tanks to keep the cork tap washers swollen.
Regards,
Kim Siddorn
No personal experience, but have been told of a case where a fishing boat had a you-beaut copper tank built at huge expense for fuel (diesel) and they had no end of trouble - I think it may have been microbes, clogging up filters. No problems with copper/brass pipes and fittings, but trouble arises with the long(ish) term.
Perhaps it would have been due to the moisture entrained in the diesel fuel as microbes need at least traces of water, perhaps less of a problem with petrol or kero?
P.S. I don't think that turning off the petrol and running the engine to cut-out does empty the carby, does it? Certainly lowers the level, but would not "run it dry."
Jack > Petrol reacting with copper? News to me - not that I'm denying it, you
I once had a boat with a copper fuel tank and never experienced any problems with fuel contamination. The secret seems to be to keep the tank full when the vessel is not in use and the use of a filter/water separator of adequate capacity. Those who used their boats infrequently and who left little fuel in the tank always seemed to get fuel problems.
One of the best sources of revenue for the marine mechanic was when the "more money than sense" brigade started their turbo diesels up for the first time after a winter lay-up. Clueless "fair-weather sailor" show-off owners of Fairy Huntsman's fitted with Ford Sabre turbo diesels were much loved for their tendency to give it loads of throttle after a six month lay-up.
Are marine Ford diesels any less crap than their road brethren ?
I am aware that small Ford diesels were pretty awful but I was unaware that the larger ones were crap. My experience is with the 4.2 litre 4 cylinder and the larger 6 cylinder ones built throughout the 60's to the
80's. While they were probably the most common diesel engines used in power boats at that time, if cared for correctly they were as reliable as any other engine available at the time. As far as I am aware nothing put out the same power for less money, they were easy to maintain and spares were never difficult to find.
Kim, after checking up on this, I believe what I had mixed up was the point that copper fuel lines can work-harden and fracture if not secured and allowed to vibrate. Sorry for any panic I may have caused. That's what you get from an ex-pat Geordie slowly sliding into senility.. regards, Mike Gray
Quite true, the D series (follow-on from the old Thames Trader engines engines with the Simms in-line pumps were used for marine and genset applications with very little trouble, although a bit clanky.
Peter
-- Peter A Forbes Prepair Ltd, Luton, UK snipped-for-privacy@easynet.co.uk
Dad once had a Ford D wagon that seemed to behave as well as his later Bedford TKs did. The many Transits though were all horrors - whether they had the nasty V4 or the even nastier York diesel. I think the York is simply the worst and most unreliable engine I've ever dealt with, and long-haul lightweight vans are a pretty easy life for an engine. It was certainly worse than the little car-sized diesels, bad as they were.
Using the York diesel as a marine engine would be about as suicidal as playing Russian Roulette with six chambers full. One of the most unreliable marine diesels I have ever experienced were a pair of Caterpillar V8's fitted in a Lochin 38'. The makers claimed a top speed of 30 knots, the best ever achieved was 24 knots with empty water tanks, very low fuel, freshly anti-fouled and no passengers. When as often was the case one engine broke down it was hard pressed to maintain 10 knots. The other draw back was that at anything above 14 knots the fuel consumption started to exceed a gallon per mile.
A friend of mine once had a York engined Transit. He reckoned the first start of the day needed a battery the size of an orange crate and a can of Easy Start.... He actually had a sort of spout arrangement protruding into the cab, rather like the speaking tube of a ship, through which the Easy Start could be administered.
Regards
Philip T-E
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