Depends. If a significant proportion of the original finish remains then a rub over with an oily rag will do me. OTOH if it has really gone beyond that then a full paint job is fine.
Sometimes the finish is a very much part of the history of an engine. Take a look at the piece I wrote on F&J Farm Pump Engine in the Jan 2001 SEM and you will note that I cited the consistency of paint colour and texture as evidence that my engine left the factory with its current crank case, thus throwing into question the accepted chronology of the FPE's development - wouldn't have got far with that one if it had had the full treatment.
On the subject of Strumpshaw last weekend & the many "As found" engines in the field" How do you like your engines to be finished. ?My hobby is restoration which means to most of us that we clean restore mechanicals bits & paint engines up complete with transfers & then if it tickles your fancy take them onto the rally field. For all to enjoy other exhibitors & Public alike. So what does someone who shows in my opinion pieces of rusty old crap get out of it. they are missing out on all the fun.
non original paint colours also get my goat when i know full well that painting information is readily availiable.
The lime green WDII at Strumpshaw was admired by many behind & in front of the ropes but the owner was continually offended by remarks such as " Nice engine mate pity about the colour"
-- I have restored Classic Cars Steam traction engines Steam & diesel Engines Locomotives & motorbikes all to almost concours condition (Funds allowing) & even my father an engineer of 50 years laughs at me filling in all the imperfections. I get a hell of alot out of this hobby & enjoy the restoration as well as rallying. So now the gates are open for discussion. enjoy.
I am currently bringing back to running condition a 1919 Lister M which when working will still have the finish it had when I bought it, it will not have had a coat of paint what so ever and as Nick put it only an oily rag. If I was to restore is it will loose its Patina and character so will be left alone. On the other hand I have restored a complete wreck which had parts missing and needed to go back to bare metal so was repainted back to the colours I found when stripping. Horses for courses, as regards colours I have seen Red GPO Lister D's and yellow Lister D's because that is what the customer wanted when fitted to their machinery. Like all vintage equipment the eye of the beholder is subjective, you see differently to me, if you want to polish castings to removes marks then so be it but don't knock the bog standard engine because that is how 99.9% of them were made.
How do you know what was original?, yes there are books that say for example that most Listers were mid-brunswick green but was every one?, did they never paint ones to a customers requirements?, considering they brushed them I would have thought they would be happy to use any colour the customer would pay for!.
Why?, did they come out of the factory in concours condition?, stationary engines were work horses not showmans engines. I've seen engines with paint jobs that wouldn't look out of place in a car show room, they've clearly fettled, filled, sprayed, hand finished and polished them but how on earth can anyone claim this is authentic when the makers just brushed on a coat of paint and shipped them out 8-).
If that's what you want to do that's fine, but why judge others to be wrong if they have other ideas?, I could equally comment to you at a show that your fancy paint job is just as wrong as that lime green...
afraid you're on a losing wicket here, this lot polish the brass and laquer the paint, and since they only run a few hours a year under light load the internals are savaged.
they wouldn't know a working engine if it landed on their foot.
I tend to give my engines a full strip down and re-build, unless they obviously dont need it. On the subject of paint I enjoy seeing engies still in their working clothes and agree that when possible they should be left in this state, however most engins I come across tend to be too far gone, or to have all ready bing re-paintd by other people at some point in the past. I usually give them a decent paint job, but do not believe in filling every little blemish etc as it takes some of the character and individuality away from the engine. In the past I have come across engines where casting numbers have being filled in, which they most certainly would not have being when new. I also try to match the paint as closely as possible to the original, however this becomes difficult if somebody has all ready re-painted the engine, thus leaving no original paint to work from.
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 23:26:09 +0100, "Greg" finished tucking into their plate of fish, chips and mushy peas. Wiping their mouths, they swiggged the last of their cup of tea, paid the bill and wrote::
If the item has most of the original paint, with transfers, with just the odd chip, then I'd say that that was original. The Lister D in my garage has little or no visible paint (I haven't yet looked in the "hidden" places where there might be some paint left) so it's going to get repainted.
As you rightly said: each to his own. My take on this was that for events like the Royal Show, manufacturers would really "bull" an engine and go to town on the finish - filler, high-gloss paint, chromium plated brasswork, My engines (and the D, when I get around to it) were restored to the sort of finish a local dealer might apply to a stock engine for his local agricultural show - major blemishes in the castings filled, a "nice" paint finish, brasswork and maybe flywheel edges and faces polished.
This was enough to satisfy my addition to Brasso but not overdoing it, but not standard factory finish. Brian L Dominic
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I think you're missing the point of concours restoration as do most people. The driving requirements of a concours restoration is not to improve the machine/bike/car/etc but to restore it to a condition that the manufacturer was trying to achieve. This means that rough castings are not polished but smooth metal that was originally shiny can be made so, like copper pipes. The original colour (or a manufacturers option) is nearly always maintained. Cases of blatent over-restoration, such as chroming parts that were not originally chromed, loose points. Stationary engines were certainly workhorses so were at the bottom of the finishing stakes. However, the fact that the makers applied a coat of paint meant that they tried to present their product as well as possible. No doubt their show engines were finished to a higher standard than their production cousins. To me that means that they wanted their product to look like that but were prevented by reasons of cost or time. Since we are not so restricted (well certainly not on time), should we not aim for what the maker aspired to? The question of keeping something original vs replacing it (including the paint) is a difficult one.Personally I err on the side that wants to present my exhibit as near original condition as possible. That means restoring the engine to as new. Since this means a repaint, so be it. As those who have seen my engines will know, they are never likely to be valuable contributers to our engineering history. I also have to consider that my engines travel to shows in the back of my car, frequently accompanying us on holiday. It's much better if they are at least clean so the boot can be used for other holiday stuff like clothes, toys, nappies, etc. There are many who want to restore to a different standard. So be it. Originality is rarely the best from any point of view except perhaps original cost. Would anyone criticise a resored car for having a pair of period spot lights fitted even if it didn't leave the factory with them? Personally, I happily support the owners individuality to the point where any changes become irreversible. If someone wants chromed pipes, etc, that's up to them. Modifying the chassis to accept a different axle is another matter. How many of us would happily replace original Whitworth fasteners with modern (different) ones? I would certainly hope that any 240V electrics use modern wiring and that pressure vessels comply with current safety requirements. The prospect of a steam boiler failing because the owner kept the original rivets is a horrible one. Of course the next question is whether to replace an earlier repair. Is that part of the engines history even if it was poorly done (as many were)? As many of our engines have evolved during their life, what age should you restore them to? This is a question frequently asked by folks who own competition cars. These cars changed weekly so should it be presented as one spec or another? Should specifications be mixed to show the development process? It's all down to an individualls choice but that's my 2P's worth.
On 4 Jun 2006 01:28:17 -0700, "John" finished tucking into their plate of fish, chips and mushy peas. Wiping their mouths, they swiggged the last of their cup of tea, paid the bill and wrote::
I regret to say that most cars restored to concours condition go way beyond this, with parts polished that were never polished and paintwork finished to a much higher standard than on the production line. The same goes for buses: chassis are painted black and engines polished, when in service (or even on leaving the factory) the whole kit & caboodle would have been sprayed with aluminium / silver paint.
However, whatever flies your kite................
Brian L Dominic
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Brian, I agree that most concours restorations go way beyond the original quality of finish. I actually said that they "restore it to a condition that the manufacturer was trying to achieve" It's generally accepted that (in most cases) the original production versions fell quite a way short of this. I suppose we should ask what level of finish we should restore to? As the makers produced engines finished to a range of standards (probably dependant upon who was weilding the paint brush and how close it was to tea break), should we aim for the best, the worst or somewhere in the middle?
Thanks for that John. I have never really been conkers fan be it cars engines or whatever, but that is the first time I have heard a sensible explanation of what its proponents are trying to achieve.. Ie to reproduce what the the manufacturer would have liked to achieve (and probably did on show models) were it not for the time and cost constraints of mass production. I shall look upon their effort in a whole new light.
I've been trying to work out what my hobby is by the definition of the OP and reached the conclusion it must be 'preserving rusty old crap' - I'm comfortable with that ;-) As others have said each to their own, but try not to destroy too much historical evidence along the way.
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On 4 Jun 2006 01:46:31 -0700, "John" finished tucking into their plate of fish, chips and mushy peas. Wiping their mouths, they swiggged the last of their cup of tea, paid the bill and wrote::
...... and the owners and restorers can get quite fanatical about this. I was once shown a concours Citroen DS and asked if I could identify the "new" wing. When I picked it out almost at once (because tho' they were all identical on the top, the bottom edge of one was much rougher than the rest) he was MOST upset!
.............. which is where I originally came in!
Brian L Dominic
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I suppose the ultimate in restoration techniques must be those applied to fine art paintings and we all know what they can be worth. Here the original paint is paramount but so is the look of the painting. The techniques vary but two I've heard of are to overpaint using a finish that can be easily removed from the original without any damage, or to repaint using a VERY fine brush in single strips. This means the painting looks restored at a distance but the original paint can still be seen through a microscope. Both techniques maintain the original paint for future generations. The first may be an option for us, I doubt even the most fanatical engine enthusiast would go for the second. It does show what can be achieved though. Personally I wonder if some people use the "keep the original finish" argument to mask a level of lazyness. I now await the flames :-)
I've always preferred to see a well-restored but not over-done restoration than either the 'original condition' (oily rag) or concours restorations.
The problem with the 'oily rag' guys is that they often also leave the mechanicals untouched, which means that the engine or whatever is often running with worn out parts etc.
Concours restorers are often fanatical on details which makes them a bit of a bore to talk to, but a nicely done object can be very pleasing to look on.
Peter
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Oh I wish I could read the minds of men long dead, it would be fascinating
8-). But seriously, is there evidence of these claims the makers and even dealers would go to such lengths as stripping, filling and repainting for a show?. I've never read of such things in any authoritative work, and the actual engine that arrived would come as a bit of a shock to a purchaser if they had been sold such a 'ponced up' model.
PA> The problem with the 'oily rag' guys is that they often also leave the PA> mechanicals untouched, which means that the engine or whatever is PA> often running with worn out parts etc.
Ok ok, I will do the little end on the F&J eventually! OTOH it could be the original 'compressed babbit' and worth preserving ;-)
Off to Stoke Row Now.
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