I have to say I measured the depth of the Bechmann windows using the BR plan, but this then only confirms my earlier point that it is futile working from drawings, whatever their source, and photographs are a more reliable datum base; but, as you say, taking into account the 'effects of perspective and paralax'.
Whether the production Deltics were built to the official plans or not is irrelevent to me, I can't confirm or dispute that, but I still maintain that the cab front windows on the model windows look a little on the shallow side.
I've taken a number of Deltic dimensions, mostly from Tulyar, and crossed-checked them with those taken some time ago by Francis Knight. I've also worked from a great many photos to try and help create a set of scale drawings for scratch-building a Deltic.
I can give the windscreens' overall dimensions (exposed glass) as:
18.9" x 38.9", equivalent to 6.30 x 12.97mm in 4mm scale. Bachmann's measure 5.3 x 12.3mm driver's side and 5.5 x 12.5mm secondman's side (to the inside of the silver painted frames). The frames are incorporated into the 'glass' moulding, so if these are removed, the holes in the body shell are only slightly smaller than the screens should be.
The longitudinal dimensions of the bodywork are probably the most accurate aspect of the model. On the full sized loco, the distance between cab doorways is 40'. Cab doorway width is 24.25". Distance from cab doorway to nose side-grill frame is 5' 3.25" (measured parallel with bodyside taper). Width of grill (over frame) is 4' 5/8". Projection of the nose end is also pretty accurate on the model. Rather more suspect are some of the vertical dimensions such as the height of the nose and overall height of bodyshell.
It is important not to draw too many conclusions from only one photo. Even a good side view taken from several hundred feet away will have noticeable perspective problems. One needs to work from a combination of photos (lots of them!), engineering drawings and actual measurements, while keeping in mind the potential problems and limitations of all three sources of data.
I wonder if we'd have this much fuss over the Deltic if it looked right but was dimensionally out? Most of the discussions have started because it just looks wrong before the dimensions are considered, people have looked at it, thought hmm there's something funny about that, and whipped out the plans photos rulers etc to find out what it is and to see if it can be put right. I'm sure people haven't cast such a critical eye over the Heljan Hymek mainly because it looks spot on.
Oh yes they have, and it's pretty much spot on. That's why it's had no serious criticism, other than in one particular magazine, which when it looked at it again contradicted most of what it said first time around.
Or is it just that the deltic is a special case. Hymeks might be fondly remembered by a small number of people, but compared to the deltic... ? There is something almost religious about some followers of the deltic. Many classes have their dedicated band of enthusiasts, but the deltic is very special in that regard.
There are far more people who will cast a critical eye over a deltic model than would over a hymek.Far fewer people would have the detailed knowledge of the a hymek or a 25 or a 33 (etc. etc.) to even notice if it "looked wrong". For the majority of people all these models look like the prototype. If a panel line is .5mm too far forward, who cares? If it looks like the prototype, has a decent level of detail and runs well, they will be happy. I count myself among that numerous group.
I can understand someone who wants to scratch-build a model wanting to get it right in every detail. That's just pride in your work. But to buy a RTR model for £45 then grumble about it is just beyond me. I don't like Fiat cars. I think they are plasticy and horrible so I would never consider buying one. Do I go on newsgroups and Yahoo groups to grumble about them...? Of course not. If the argument is that there isn't a higher-spec alternative, then that is because there in't a sufficient market for it. Model railways in the UK as a whole is a minority hobby. The "discerning" end of the hobby is even smaller and whilst it can support niche manufacturers of kits and detailing parts, it can't support a RTR manufacturer like Bachmann and Hornby.
When pointed out to me, I can see some of the faults on recent models, but compared with the shortcomings of my scenery-making skills and the clunky nature of my HO trackwork, to me, they pale into insignificance.It's always easier to grumble about someone else's work than it is to concentrate on your own.
In some ways I admire those amongst us who can immediately spot a panel line out of place or missing detail on a bogie sideframe, but to me it's just not important. If it hadn't been mentioned, I wouldn't have known the exhaust port was missing on the Bachmann peak. But there's the point. If you don't know it's wrong, it doesn't matter that it is. If you need someone else to point out a problem then it doesn't matter enough to you. In terms of overall efect on a layout, minor detail errors on a loco are far less important than good weathering, scenery and trackside detail.
That's a very sweeping last statement. There's is a higher spec alternative to Hornby and Bachmann in Heljan, although the latter can at times leave something to be desired in their models. Having said that we've sold more Heljan 47s than ever we did with the Hornby or Lima alternatives, which must say something for the demand for higher quality models.
I'm not a Deltic fan and still think the Bachmann model looks wrong. The old Lima looks more like a Deltic to me and lengthwise is proportionately more accurate than Heljan's Class 47 is widthwise. The characteristic features of a Deltic are a massive bulbous nose and sharply raked windscreen, neither of which are present on the Bachmann model.
This is probably sacrilege since no one else has mentioned it but Heljan's Hymek bodyshell looks less real to me than Triang's old model.
Ah well, that just shows how easily some people are to please.
There are numerous inaccuracies with the Tri-ang/Hornby model, whereas the Heljan model is 'probably' the most accurate ready-to-run diesel model ever produced for the UK market.
Fair point - and you are certainly in a good position to know how these various models shift off the shelves. However, comparing the Heljan with the Hornby and Lima models is not the same as comparing it with a recent Bachmann release. People have been spoiled in recent years and expect something with a central motor and drive to most of the wheels - a trend started by Bachmann for mainstream releases. Would you say that your shop was typical in the spread customers (collectors, train-set types, demanding modellers) ? One of my local shops doesn't stock Heljan ("too expensive for my customers"), but he is very definitely covering the toy end of the market.
As for how much better Heljan are than Bachmann... They have a much smaller product line (so far), and the 47 is certainly flawed (or so I am told). Also, the imminent Western is rumoured to be less than accurate. Having said all that, I would (and probably will) buy a Heljan 47, mainly for the level of detail and running qualities. To me, whether it's too wide or not, it looks like a 47 and the level (as opposed to the accuracy) of the detail is way above any other 47 on the market. Similarly, the Bachmann 25 looks like a 25 to me, runs well and has a decent level of detail. It may have detail flaws, but they don't concern me.
I suppose that if I was to play devil's advocate with my own argument, then I could say that Bachmann's and Heljan's problems are not to do with the
*quality* of the product, but are all down to errors in the development stages. Getting these things right isn't a matter of building down to a price. It's probably more to do with rushing the development cycle so that errors creep in.
At the end of the day, if the market were large enough, Heljan, Bachmann and Hornby could all produce versions of the same prototypes, to different levels of detail and the buyer would have some choice. As it is, we have almost none. Assuming that we all want something with a modern mechanism in it (which I do), we have almost none. If we want a 47, we have to buy Heljan (or Lima / Hornby tooled 10+ years ago). If we want a Deltic, we have Bachmann's effort or an ancient, discontinued Lima on HO bogies. It's the same for the 20, 25, 40, Hymek - even the 37.
If you had the Bachmann Deltic and a Heljan one similar in accuracy to the Hymek, priced at £60 and £80, it would be interesting to see which sold best. Perhaps I'd eat my words and pay for the better model. Until two manufacturers produce a modern model of the same prototype, there will be no competition in the market. Perhaps the 66 / 57 situation might begin to change that.
I can't disagree with that, but arguably the Heljan Hymek is streets better than their 47 but has (in my shop) sold far fewer, but that could be simply a geographic thing. However, it just goes to show that statistics can be used to make any point, and there is probably no definitive answer to the question.
My personal position (as opposed to my position as a retailer) is that I would prefer much higher quality British outline 4mm scale models, on a par with the best sold in the USA and European markets. The reality is that they would probably cost twice the amount Bachmann is currently charging for their larger diesel models. Would that bother me? Well no ...................... I'd just buy half the quantity.
So would I, but some wouldn't buy at all and Bachmann's proffits would be damaged - I imagine.
Incidentally, it seems that my attempted posts to DEMODellers are being "moderated". I tried to post in defense of a.r.m.r, but so far nothing has appeared in the digests I receive.
Personally, despite it being more open in terms of availability to subscribers, I find this group a more adult and sensible place than DEMODELLERS. If my second attempt at adding to the "debate" over there fails to make it through, I'll unsubscribe. Not that I'll lose much sleep over it. It seems to me that a certain person there is becoming a little Presidential again which is to the detriment of the group.
One of my posts there yesterday took an eternity to appear, and whilst I suppose I could be on moderated status (the Group as a whole is allegedly moderated) other posts have appeared very quickly.
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