ElectricNose

Well, it has never happened before, on any of the groups I have posted to. A second message went missing yesterday, which was in direct response to a certain moderator's comments. There was certainly nothing offensive, off-topic or directed at any individual, just some comments which disagreed directly with comments made by him. I particularly objected to the suggestion that one of my assertions was not my own thoughts, but "urban myth" from "other parts" (by which I presume he meant here). It seems that said person is not going to allow me to respond to that. Fortunately, you have said most of what I tried to post yesterday about the dangers to Bachmann and the hobby in general of raising prices without anything to fill the gap at the lower end of the market. And probably in a more elequent fashion.

I have made one more attept to set the record straight about a.r.m.r. I'll stay subscribed there long enough to see if it passes moderation.

On other matters...

I'm loooking at buying a Heljan 47 something which fits my 78-83 chosen period. Do you have anything in stock? If so, can you let me know by email?

Thanks

Adrian

Reply to
Adrian
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"Adrian" wrote

There are general problems with Yahoo at the moment. Indeed go to the Group website and in the messages archive read message 29467.

Last night I replied to a reply to a message which I didn't get until this morning. Follow that if you can! And I've had a couple of replies to another message which I posted last night, whereas my original message is still stuck in the ether somewhere.

John.

Reply to
John Turner

Fair enough..I sincerely hope that is the reason. Either way, I have come to the conclusion that demodellers isn't for me. I really can't stand way that perfectly sensible arguments are twisted and ridiculed over there. You have been on the receiving end of some of this recently. I admire your coolness. I don't want to be made to feel like a traitor because I am actually *quite* happy with the current crop of diesel offerings. Yes, I'd like better, but I reckon that Bachmann have a much better idea of their market than any armchair expert. It amuses me that a certain person refuses to accept your analysis of the situation, despite the fact that you are clearly in a much better position to know.

Adrian

Reply to
Adrian

Adrian,

Sorry - maybe I wasn't clear in my last message, but Steve Jones started deleting all messages on the uk.rec.models.rail topic. I had submitted two which did not appear, but SJ emailed me telling me what he was doing.

Jim.

Reply to
Jim Guthrie

"Adrian" wrote

I hear what you say, but to be honest demod is more than one individual and there is an absolute wealth of information available through the membership if you choose to find it.

Steve's entitled to his opinion, and I'm entitled to mine, and to be fair both views are getting an airing. I don't believe that my views have been ridiculed, just disagreed with, but then I'm thick skinned and have been accused of calling a spade more than a spade in the past.

I like being called 'cool' - thank you. Sometimes you want to see the messages I don't send! But it's much more difficult for an adversary if one maintains a cool and rational approach. ;-)

John.

Reply to
John Turner

Well I've now had 3 messages disappear into the ether. It's immaterial now because I have un-subscribed. Maybe I'll come back again later but for me it's all a bit too elitist.

I believe what is said about the Bachmann Deltic - I just don't think it's as drastic as some on demod do. What I really can't stomach is the continual insinuation that anyone who doesn't agree with the moderator is incapable of rational thought. I disagee, but I'm not a Bachmann crony. I don't have any connection with them (another accusation which borders on the libelous) and I am capable of making my own mind up - from my own point of view, with my own set of standards. That and the ridiculing of this newsgroup I just find intollerable. The continuous jibes at MREmag also grate a little. I agree that it is very lightweight and that the reviews are of little or no serious value, but there is no need for the regular abuse it receives. It serves a purpose and as far as I am concerned does no harm - just becuase it doesn't fit into the demod ideal doesn't forfit its right to exist.

My argument isn't that these models are perfect - they are not, just that they are reasonable value for money and serve the market for which they were intended. There will always be those people for whom a better model at double the price would be more attractive, but there are (I suspect) far more who would look at a £100 price tag and walk away-just as there are probably those who do so at £50. I believe that the people at Bachmann and Hornby WOULD produce £120 locos if they thought they would sell better than the ones they produce now. However I believe that if there was nothing attractive on the market in the £50 price bracket, then you would have effectively removed a rung on the ladder between the toy market and "serious" modeller.

Steve Jones is obviously knowledgable. He clearly cares about the hobby, but he seems incapable of understanding that there is any valid view but his own. His (often lengthy) posts hide the more contentious remarks in a haystack of truisms and the bleedin' obvious. He presents his opinions as if they are fact and is condesending and insulting to those who dare to disagree. I for one can do without it. One of the reasons I haven't joined my local MRC is the fear of meeting a similar character.

I hope everyone continues to benefit from demod, but at the moment, it's not for me.

Adrian

Reply to
Adrian

"Adrian"

Bachmann's Spectrum steam sell for around Can$200, so there's your £120 right there.

-- Cheers Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

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Reply to
Roger T.

"Roger T." wrote

You wish! CA$200 = GBP85.00 ish! ;-)

John.

Reply to
John Turner

I understand said individual also runs a "d&e modellers" elist, a spoof also exists at:

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For those who like to rant about nothing in particular!

Jeff

Reply to
T Rollop

"T Rollop" wrote

Well I have to say that the Group description of electricnostril is absolutely hilarious. :-)

John.

Reply to
John Turner

What do you think of the discussion about the commercial viability of a very high-quality British outline diesel? I'd gauge that there probably is, but it's the suppression of debate I find sad.

Who are these people who keep sending Steve complaint e-mails? He's mentioned them a few times before. If people really are "losing the will to live" over someone's opinion, based presumably on your knowledge of the business, I think they should take a step back and look at the matter with a sense of perspective!

Best,

John.

Reply to
John Yartek

"John Yartek" wrote

My thoughts exactly. I run a couple of Yahoo! Groups and although I occasionally get emails direct from subscribers, they are rapidly told if there's something they're not happy with then they should air it on Group.

The only time there's likely to be heavy-handed moderation is if members start to get offensive to each other.

Still we all play with out train sets in the manner we see fit, and I've still got my dummy firmly in gob! ;-)

John.

Reply to
John Turner

"John Yartek" wrote

You've probably gathered I'm not convonced one way or t'other. Certainly the Heljan class 47 (warts and all) seems to sugget that there is a strong market for higher priced quality models, but it's also possible that people bought this for its novelty value - new manufacturer and all that.

What creates some doubt is that the Heljan Hymek, which is a far superior model to their 47, and is also a little cheaper hasn't sold anywhere near as well. OK, this could certainly be a regional variation problem, but if nothing else it does show that the matter isn't completely clear cut and that significant popularilty maybe requires models of locos which were used widely throughout the country.

John.

Reply to
John Turner

I don't think there's any doubt why it sold / sells so well. Despite the well-documented width problem, it is a quality product (in British terms at least), which knocks spots off the Lima and Hornby versions in every department. Couple that with the fact the 47 is (or at least was) so ubiquitous, you have a model which has a wide appeal in its numerous liveries. Compare that with the Hymek - OK, it's a more accurate model, but you have a prototype which never really strayed from the western region and only had two major livery variations. It is also restricted to a relatively short timeframe. No contest. That is why I find it a little strange that Heljan have chosen another WR hydraulic as their next model. Surely a 33 would have been a better bet (most of the classes which were really country-wide have been covered recently).

Back to the issue of debate, I'm not sure if a couple of the previous posts were aimed at me (having thrown my dummy out of the demod pram)... I have decided not to stay with that particular group for several reasons, but chief among them is the fact that it has turned into a clique which seems to look down its (electric) nose at other groups of modelers - a.r.m.r for one. I feel that the debate here is much more adult and constructive. Demod has become a place where the most "demanding" of modellers can hide away and belittle those who are in any way happy with the current offerings from Bachmann etc. This group has a much broader range of subscribers and therefore a much more useful debate. How much debate can go on in a group which is so narrow in its range of subscribers? It's like expecting a useful debate about Europe from the UKIP party...

Personally, I'd love to see a really top-notch UK diesel model. I'd probably buy one (but only one) if it was in the £120 price bracket. I suspect that there would be a reasonable market, but I doubt that the profits available to such a manufacturer would come anywhere near those which Bachmann achieves at the level it has pitched its products.

Let's hope someone tries. Before I unsubscribed from demod, I noticed a suggestion that Pete Waterman's Just Like The Real Thing should be persuaded to produce a 4mm version of their superb "peak". Perhaps the combination of that and a company set up to build and paint the kits might begin to fill the gap.

Adrian

Reply to
Adrian

"Adrian" wrote

I'd buy them too, probably more than one if it fitted in with what I wanted to achieve modelling wise. My doubt exists purely in terms of the viability to sell in large quantities. My experience suggests that the UK market is price critical.

But one of the biggest arguments on demod in favour of a high quality ready-to-run diesel model was that people do not have the time nor skills to build such models.

John.

Reply to
John Turner

True, that's why I mentioned the notion of a company who would build the kits - effectively they would sell R-T-R versions of the kits.

Of course, the question of where such a company would spring from is another matter altogether.

re demod... Someone emailed me Steve Jones' reply to one of your messages on demod where he basically says "what I say is fact and anyone who disagrees isn't allowed in my group". Am I sorry I left demod....no. The thing that astounds me is that he presumes to argue about the model market with a retailer... It's such a shame. The group has so much to offer.

Adrian

Reply to
Adrian

Exactly my gripe with the group. It is run by one man who purports to have the backing of numerous faceless others (who incidentally don't appear to post therefore don't contribute anything to the group). What the moderator says goes and thats final. Too many people have left / fallen silent for us all to be wrong that there is something tragically wrong with the way the group runs. Unfortunately people view demod as the voice of d&e modellers and it does come over as a very extreemist bunch dictated to by a small clique of individuals.

No doubt 99% of what Mr Jones says is correct and much of his critisim against individual models and manufacturers is fair but its the 1% of his rants when he becomes personal against people who "step out of line" or the 'godfather' approach he takes to d&e modelling (i.e. the moderator urban myth posting) really winds me up. As someone said earlier, its like having a fair discussion on Europe with UKIP or even worse discussing immigration policy with the BNP - you ain't going to get an objective discussion from narrow minded individuals who only see their viewpoint!

I was interested in the following quote from the moderator: "I know this reflects the view of the majority of people that I regard as the target membership of this group, because they've been quite vocal in telling me so off-list - they're 'losing the will to live' as one person put it."

That would mean he would have had over 350 emails off list from members saying they didn't agree with what John said - I'm sorry but that is utter b+ll+x! I have run an email discussion list three times the size of demod and I only ever got off list emails on any subject from little more than a dozen members. People just don't contact moderators over such issues, they simply delete the offending message or thread. As for the person loosing their will to live - then perhaps it would be safer for all of society if their wish was granted instead of getting wound up over such trivial matters.

Never mind there is always

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to police and highlight the irreverant nonsense spouted on its sister list!

Enjoy and have fun - its only a hobby!

Reply to
T Rollop

Sometimes I think its just me. I just want to ENJOY what I do for a hobby. I have precious little time to myself, and what I do have is spent in vein attempts to get my layout somewhere close to the level of detail and prototype "fidelity" that Bachmann achieve... I know that Bachmann have made some gaffs with their models, as have all the manufacturers, but I'm still nowhere near that level with the other elements of my layout. That, in Steve Jones' eyes makes me a second class citizen who doesn't have a valid viewpoint. I made the mistake of believing that demod was intended to encourage modelers and help them at whatever level they may be. Sadly, it turns out that that is not the case. Demod is a group for people who want to critisise anyone who doesn't agree with them or who doesn't meet their exacting standards. They claim that they want to advance the hobby, but aim to achieve that by alienating those on the lower rungs of the hobby and dismissing them as people who play with toys. Well, I've got news for them. This is a hobby and nomatter whether a model cost £20 or £200, it's still a toy. Perhaps they are ashamed to admit that they play with toys! I'm not.

Having spent a year as a demod subscriber, feeling like a gatecrasher at a party, I'm glad I've made the break. Perhaps I'll miss the odd nugget of useful information, but I won't miss the endless "me too" Bachmann-bashing posts. I won't miss the "think I'll keep my Lima" posts. I won't miss patronising replies to perfectly reasonable posts and I certainly won't miss the egos of certain regulars there who are incapable of believing that any opinion but their own is of any worth whatsoever.

There are plenty of decent folk on here who have helped me out in the past. I'm sure they will again, just as I will try to help where I can.

Adrian

Reply to
Adrian

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