ElectricNose



What Bachmann don't seem to realise though, is that just because a loco was built using a drawing, it doesn't mean it was built exactly the same as that drawing. As anyone who has experience of making things using drawings will know, sometimes construction has to be altered just to get the end result to work properly.
Fred
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snipped-for-privacy@gppsoftware.com wrote:
> That of course, depends on where the drawings come from. There are > many unofficial drawings published in various books which I would > agree are sometimes inaccurate, but what about the official BR > drawings ? Bachmann apparently use a combination of official BR > drawings and measurements of prototypes - and I know this was done > for a fact with the Std 4 tank.
I suppose that there are two things to consider in response to your question. One is that "official" drawings themselves are sometimes inaccurate. While not directly relevant to model railways, the old Airfix model of the Fairey Battle light bomber was a classic example of this. In my own experience are the official drawings of various Clyde-GM cab units that were once common here in Australia. None are particularly accurate in regards to the nose and cab window shape, for the reasons outlined below.
One reason is the limitations of 2-D drafting when attempting to accurately depict the subtle contours of a 3-D object such as diesel noses and cabs. A GA drawing need not be 100% accurate, since this is not being used as the basis for fabricating individual components.
Another is the fact that big sheet metal fabrications such as these often depart slightly from the drawing, especially if the final forming and finishing are done by hand.
I would agree that the basis of any accurate model is an accurate drawing, but I would caution against treating outline or GA drawings as gsopel.
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Steve Jones is a prominent modern railway photographer in his own right. Bachmann's club magazine used manufacturer's drawings to compare their recent Deltic with the original. Even from their own drawings it is obvious that a large section of the rounded nose end is missing, especially towards the top. This is most noticable on models painted in blue & yellow livery. Basically, there isn't much nose end to paint yellow.
Also obvious from Bachmann's own drawings is that the ' V ' angle of the windshield screen is far too shallow.
(kim)
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Who or what is ElectricNose and where is the website referred to please?
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I typed electricnose into google and it was the first answer!!!!
--
David A Smith
Copthorne, West Sussex.UK
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Ed Callaghan wrote:-

It's the model railway blog page of modern railway photographer Steve Jones
http://www.electricnose.co.uk /
(kim)
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On 21 Sep 2004 20:32:10 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gppsoftware.com wrote:

You might want to Google back in this newsgroup to some months ago and find a thread in which Steve Jones (of ElectricNose) and some others got into a somewhat heated debate about the dimensional accuracy of the first edition of the Bachmann Deltic. I think almost everyone and his dog had an input, including people who had actually crawled over Deltics and measured them.
It also included some debate about the dangers of using photographs to check scale dimensions.
Jim.
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Thanks for that Jim. When I posted my original question I wasn't being specific about any particular model. I spotted references to ElectricNose on this list which led me to Steve Jones' web site. I was curious as to his sources of information because his web site appeared to be another one of those highly critical 'it's wrong' brigade sites with no information substanciating any of the claims made. I will check the archives of thsi list - thanks for the suggestion.
Since the Bachmann Deltic has been mentioned, let me provide my own research into the accuracy (or not) of this model because it concurs with what most have said on this thread.
I have a book 'British Rail in Colour 1968-1980' by John Glover/Ian Allan, published in 1988 ISBN 0 7110 1796 4. This book has a superb picture on the front cover of a side on view of 55007 at speed. I am also a member of the Bachmann club and have received their latest club magazine containing their drawings and explanation of the model. I used tracing paper to mark out the shape of the prototype from the book cover and to my greatest surprise, it is _exactly_ the same size as the diagrams in the Bachmann magazine! Because it is exactly a side-on view, there are no issues of perspective or paralax involved and it therefore provides conclusive evidence for an exact comparison. So where is the model wrong ? Well, actually, it is a lot worse than you might think. When the tracing of the prototype is overlaid over Bachmann's printing of the official BR drawing, it becomes evident that the production locos were not built according to the drawings. The height of the roof on the diagram is a fair bit higher than that on the production loco, leading me to suggest that the plan may be that of the experimental light blue deltic. The nose cone is exactly the same but the cab side windows (which are larger) and door (further back) are in a slightly different positions. The basic dimensions of the nose such as the bonnet length, height etc are exactly the same. It is the height of the cab roof and lower body edges which are quite different.
When the tracing is overlaid over Bachmann's model drawing, all dimensions including the roof height and nose dimensions are exactly the same as the production prototype, so evidently, Bachmann have draw their diagram from measurements of a production loco.
When the tracing is overlaid over the picture of the Bachmann model, all the innaccuracies are immediately obvious. Firstly, Bachmann's model is not the same as their own plan! The shape of the model is exactly the same as the production real loco and all of the dimensions are exactly the same including the nose shape, angle, height, bonnet length and the front windscreen height, angle, size etc. What is incorrect is the detail. The reason why the yellow end of the nose does not look right is because the wrap-around of the yellow paint needs to come around nearly half as much again (in vertical width) as it is on the model. But this cannot be done because the nose-side grill is a several mm too far forward. Likewise, the cab-side windows are too far forward (by a couple of mm or so) and in turn, the cab door is also too far forward. The model cab front windows are correct by the production locos, but the production locos are not consistent with the BR drawing.
My belief is that Bachmann's explanation is another example of those misleading whitewashes we get from them (Ref: my correspondence with them regarding the rear end height problem on the Std 4 tank which resulted in a completely incorrect and misleading 'explanation' appearing on their web site). The dimensions of the deltic nose are exactly correct which is what their explanation is claiming. What is wrong is that the body side grill, windows and door are all in the wrong positions and that is what spoils the model.
I hope this helps,
Graham Plowman
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I understand said individual also runs a "d&e modellers" elist, a spoof also exists at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricnostril /
For those who like to rant about nothing in particular!
Jeff
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"T Rollop" wrote

also
Well I have to say that the Group description of electricnostril is absolutely hilarious. :-)
John.
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What do you think of the discussion about the commercial viability of a very high-quality British outline diesel? I'd gauge that there probably is, but it's the suppression of debate I find sad.
Who are these people who keep sending Steve complaint e-mails? He's mentioned them a few times before. If people really are "losing the will to live" over someone's opinion, based presumably on your knowledge of the business, I think they should take a step back and look at the matter with a sense of perspective!
Best,
John.
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"John Yartek" wrote

to
a
My thoughts exactly. I run a couple of Yahoo! Groups and although I occasionally get emails direct from subscribers, they are rapidly told if there's something they're not happy with then they should air it on Group.
The only time there's likely to be heavy-handed moderation is if members start to get offensive to each other.
Still we all play with out train sets in the manner we see fit, and I've still got my dummy firmly in gob! ;-)
John.
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"John Yartek" wrote

very
You've probably gathered I'm not convonced one way or t'other. Certainly the Heljan class 47 (warts and all) seems to sugget that there is a strong market for higher priced quality models, but it's also possible that people bought this for its novelty value - new manufacturer and all that.
What creates some doubt is that the Heljan Hymek, which is a far superior model to their 47, and is also a little cheaper hasn't sold anywhere near as well. OK, this could certainly be a regional variation problem, but if nothing else it does show that the matter isn't completely clear cut and that significant popularilty maybe requires models of locos which were used widely throughout the country.
John.
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people
I don't think there's any doubt why it sold / sells so well. Despite the well-documented width problem, it is a quality product (in British terms at least), which knocks spots off the Lima and Hornby versions in every department. Couple that with the fact the 47 is (or at least was) so ubiquitous, you have a model which has a wide appeal in its numerous liveries. Compare that with the Hymek - OK, it's a more accurate model, but you have a prototype which never really strayed from the western region and only had two major livery variations. It is also restricted to a relatively short timeframe. No contest. That is why I find it a little strange that Heljan have chosen another WR hydraulic as their next model. Surely a 33 would have been a better bet (most of the classes which were really country-wide have been covered recently).
Back to the issue of debate, I'm not sure if a couple of the previous posts were aimed at me (having thrown my dummy out of the demod pram)... I have decided not to stay with that particular group for several reasons, but chief among them is the fact that it has turned into a clique which seems to look down its (electric) nose at other groups of modelers - a.r.m.r for one. I feel that the debate here is much more adult and constructive. Demod has become a place where the most "demanding" of modellers can hide away and belittle those who are in any way happy with the current offerings from Bachmann etc. This group has a much broader range of subscribers and therefore a much more useful debate. How much debate can go on in a group which is so narrow in its range of subscribers? It's like expecting a useful debate about Europe from the UKIP party...
Personally, I'd love to see a really top-notch UK diesel model. I'd probably buy one (but only one) if it was in the 120 price bracket. I suspect that there would be a reasonable market, but I doubt that the profits available to such a manufacturer would come anywhere near those which Bachmann achieves at the level it has pitched its products.
Let's hope someone tries. Before I unsubscribed from demod, I noticed a suggestion that Pete Waterman's Just Like The Real Thing should be persuaded to produce a 4mm version of their superb "peak". Perhaps the combination of that and a company set up to build and paint the kits might begin to fill the gap.
Adrian
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"Adrian" wrote

probably
I'd buy them too, probably more than one if it fitted in with what I wanted to achieve modelling wise. My doubt exists purely in terms of the viability to sell in large quantities. My experience suggests that the UK market is price critical.

persuaded
of
But one of the biggest arguments on demod in favour of a high quality ready-to-run diesel model was that people do not have the time nor skills to build such models.
John.
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fill
to
True, that's why I mentioned the notion of a company who would build the kits - effectively they would sell R-T-R versions of the kits.
Of course, the question of where such a company would spring from is another matter altogether.
re demod... Someone emailed me Steve Jones' reply to one of your messages on demod where he basically says "what I say is fact and anyone who disagrees isn't allowed in my group". Am I sorry I left demod....no. The thing that astounds me is that he presumes to argue about the model market with a retailer... It's such a shame. The group has so much to offer.
Adrian
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where
allowed
Exactly my gripe with the group. It is run by one man who purports to have the backing of numerous faceless others (who incidentally don't appear to post therefore don't contribute anything to the group). What the moderator says goes and thats final. Too many people have left / fallen silent for us all to be wrong that there is something tragically wrong with the way the group runs. Unfortunately people view demod as the voice of d&e modellers and it does come over as a very extreemist bunch dictated to by a small clique of individuals.
No doubt 99% of what Mr Jones says is correct and much of his critisim against individual models and manufacturers is fair but its the 1% of his rants when he becomes personal against people who "step out of line" or the 'godfather' approach he takes to d&e modelling (i.e. the moderator urban myth posting) really winds me up. As someone said earlier, its like having a fair discussion on Europe with UKIP or even worse discussing immigration policy with the BNP - you ain't going to get an objective discussion from narrow minded individuals who only see their viewpoint!
I was interested in the following quote from the moderator: "I know this reflects the view of the majority of people that I regard as the target membership of this group, because they've been quite vocal in telling me so off-list - they're 'losing the will to live' as one person put it."
That would mean he would have had over 350 emails off list from members saying they didn't agree with what John said - I'm sorry but that is utter b+ll+x! I have run an email discussion list three times the size of demod and I only ever got off list emails on any subject from little more than a dozen members. People just don't contact moderators over such issues, they simply delete the offending message or thread. As for the person loosing their will to live - then perhaps it would be safer for all of society if their wish was granted instead of getting wound up over such trivial matters.
Never mind there is always http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricnostril/ to police and highlight the irreverant nonsense spouted on its sister list!
Enjoy and have fun - its only a hobby!
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Sometimes I think its just me. I just want to ENJOY what I do for a hobby. I have precious little time to myself, and what I do have is spent in vein attempts to get my layout somewhere close to the level of detail and prototype "fidelity" that Bachmann achieve... I know that Bachmann have made some gaffs with their models, as have all the manufacturers, but I'm still nowhere near that level with the other elements of my layout. That, in Steve Jones' eyes makes me a second class citizen who doesn't have a valid viewpoint. I made the mistake of believing that demod was intended to encourage modelers and help them at whatever level they may be. Sadly, it turns out that that is not the case. Demod is a group for people who want to critisise anyone who doesn't agree with them or who doesn't meet their exacting standards. They claim that they want to advance the hobby, but aim to achieve that by alienating those on the lower rungs of the hobby and dismissing them as people who play with toys. Well, I've got news for them. This is a hobby and nomatter whether a model cost 20 or 200, it's still a toy. Perhaps they are ashamed to admit that they play with toys! I'm not.
Having spent a year as a demod subscriber, feeling like a gatecrasher at a party, I'm glad I've made the break. Perhaps I'll miss the odd nugget of useful information, but I won't miss the endless "me too" Bachmann-bashing posts. I won't miss the "think I'll keep my Lima" posts. I won't miss patronising replies to perfectly reasonable posts and I certainly won't miss the egos of certain regulars there who are incapable of believing that any opinion but their own is of any worth whatsoever.
There are plenty of decent folk on here who have helped me out in the past. I'm sure they will again, just as I will try to help where I can.
Adrian
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