BR ferry wagons

(I am crossposting this to both the prototype and the modelling group as my question refers to both sides.)
From the 1920s until shortly before the opening of the channel tunnel, a differing number of rail ferry links operated between the continent and the UK. Because of the differences in loading gauge and braking systems, special rolling stock had to be used. The "continental side" of this is more or less documented, and H0 scale models of at least some types of wagon used are available.
I'm currently researching the "british side" of this, which doesn't seem to be as well documented, at least from a continental point of view. A webpage I stumbled upon[1] mentions that the british railways (beginning in the pre-BR times, but continued by BR) had rolling stock operating to the continent also. The webpage gives interesting examples, although he makes some errors (he doesn't seem to have understood the meaning og "RIV" or the UIC wagon numbering scheme completely).
The author mentions an article about BR ferry boat rolling stock by Paul Bartlett and Trevor Mann in the "Model Railway Constructor Annual for 1985" (published by Ian Allen Ltd. in 1984, ISBN 0 7110 1409 4). I can't locate this publication in any library over here in Germany. Has anyone access to this publication and could send me a copy or scan of said article? Is there any other publication about this rolling stock, especially with drawings? And are there any models of such wagons in H0 scale?
Many thanks in advance,
=ToJe ------ 1 http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm

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Torsten, I have a photocopy of that article, and some other drawings, which I could copy for you and post. I also have some articles by a chap called Guy Bratt on modelling UK loading-gauge stock to 3.5mm scale. I had the pleasure of meeting him about 15 years ago, when he gave me some copies of drawings to various scales, which he had used for his models. No such models exist of UK-registered prototypes in HO scale (though there are a DB van and a VTG bogie van) - when you do build one, as I did with a Cargowaggon Sfns flat, you suddenly realise both the difference in loading gauge and the difference in modelling 1:87 against 1:76. Drop me your address, and I'll copy them next weekend when I've got access to our copier at work. Brian

Hi,
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I tried to, but there's something wrong with your email address:
--------- by cutting here you might damage your screen surface ---------
snipped-for-privacy@letra.co.uk
host alpha1sys4.alpha1teclabs.com [83.104.95.100]:
--------- by cutting here you might damage your screen surface ---------
However, my address can also be found in my signature. :-)
Many thanks in advance and greetings from Stuttgart,
=ToJe

"Torsten Jerzembeck" wrote
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Here's an image from my www.bluediesels.co.uk website of one of the later BR(SR) Ferry Vans:-
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/53amodels//picture/FerryVan-MR-151077.jpg
John.

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Nice! I suppose this is one of the wagons that were built in the late 1950s?
Greetings from Stuttgart,
=ToJe

Torsten Jerzembeck wrote:
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The SR began it's ferry service in the mid-1930s, but the GNR/LYR/LNER had port facilities and ferries long before that. The German Einheits ferry wagon designs for operation to Britain date from about 1927, so I assume the LNER had rail ferries. So far I've failed to find any actual details - I can find ship ownership details, but not the important part. Lima made an HO BR/LMS type "Fyffes" banana van in SR markings with 'anchor' markings. There was/were SR vans of the same size but differently detailed (different roof profile, wooden ends, different doors ...) As Fyffes operated in Britain and Europe and possibly moved bananas from the closest port to scource to Europe, the Lima van fills the gap until I find something more accurate. I keep searching, but haven't turned anything up so far. Lima also did an FS thermos van (body of which can be fitted to a Roco standard chassis) and a very nice and reasonably accurate iced container which came on an FS low side FS wagon. The containers were marked "Agfa" and "Mercedes" but I have an article on a Italian vegetable/fruit facility set up for export using those containers. (painted white with FS markings.
Greg.P. NZ

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Torsten - There were a number of odd vehicles adapted for ferry use, some were fully modified to international standards other had only partial modifications. Examples from Paul Bartlett's rail wagon photographs - http://gallery6801.fotopic.net /
BR Ferry Tube diag 1/449BR built just 20 Ferry Tubes - similar in dimensions to the standard tube, including corrugated end, but with two drop doors and full air brake rigging. Later they were popular with engineers, including carrying railway spares on the ferries to Europe. 4mm drawing in Model Railway Constructor Annual 1984 pp 111-118 & Bartlett et al BR wagon book.
BR Ferry vans; diagram 1/227 of 1962 and conversionsBefore 1962, British Railways contributed only specialist wagons to the cross channel fleet of wagons that could operate on the train ferries. They then introduced two batches of ferry vans of diagram 1/227 totalling 400 wagons. These were dramatically different at a time when a variety of rather ordinary, small pallet vans and standard vans were being built. However, they were contemporary in design with European vans. Although in early days some were lettered on the doors others were plain. In the later 1970s a number were repainted but this was short lived as many bogie vans began to appear from 1977. They were only 20 years old when condemnation loomed, however as they were vacuum and air braked many were converted for alternative uses. The photographs show a selection of the later uses, which for some included equipping with Bruninghaus suspension. I wonder if the variety of TOPS codes is a record for a single design? (smile) A scale drawing of the van was reproduced as part of Bartlett, Paul w. & Mann, T., (1984) Cross-Channel Ferry Wagons used on BR in Model Railway Constructor Annual 1985 pp 18 - 29, edited by Leigh, Chris.
BR Ferry open diag 1/055 and conversionsBR built 40 shorter length ferry opens based on a much earlier SR design but with updated running gear. In later years some were reduced in height and other converted to platform inspection wagons for the Thameslink electrification. Some nice liveries and detail photos! Drawing in BR Wagons by Bartlett et al.
BR Rectanks and Conflat C - Unexepectedly, BR introduced 78 Rectanks in 1959-60. At 34ft. over headstocks with Davis & Lloyd bogies at 24ft. centres the design and main dimensions were similar to the original Rectanks introduced during World War 1. One was ferry fitted and others were converted to Conflats (see http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p488595.html ). Detail photographs includedBR SR Scenery ferry vans - Just 4 of these scenery vans were introduced in 1958 fitted for sending to the continent. Very similar to the contemporary GUV, but only 2 side doors and freight red livery.BR
Carfit C There were two batches of Carfit C built for ferry use during 1958. Although only 40 wagons they found extensive use as under runners etc. with steel carrying bolsters and by the engineers. Various liveries and detail photographs and two rebuilt as spoil wagons.
BR Presflos - Tunnel CementMany BR Presflo pressure discharge dry powder wagons were written for use by Tunnel Cement, either with a large livery or in the usual BR livery with a T prefix fleet number. As can be seen they appear to have been allocated at random from many different building lots, including one suitable for ferry use.
China Clay - ferry registered A collection of 4wh and bogie wagons used for china clay in the UK, but with international registration (see also http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c391048.html )
MAT 94xxx series Carflat Built in 1963 with ferry fixtures, and anchor I do not know if they carried the international numbers. The survivors in the 1980s were used on various traffic flows. Uniquely, they were built on the underframes of Southern Railway coaches.
There are also several modern continental designs on the site I have had great difficulty in finding any information on pre-BR rolling stock used on ferry services, if you come across any information on these I would appreciate a pointer
You comment there are errors on my website Grateful if you could advise where I was wrong in my description of RIV and the wagon numbering systems used for ferry stock
As I understand it the RIV specification relates to the fittings on the vehicle, allowing to be used for ferry work, covering the the type of coupling fitted and the provision of heavy lugs on the chassis solebars which are used for securing the wagon to the deck of the ship. Until BR changed over to air brakes ferry stock had to have both air and vacuum brakes or 'through pipes' to cope with the national differences in brake systems (as far as I know only some RIV Continental stock was fitted with a through vacuum pipe). Wagons which have been partially modified for ferry work do not carry the RIV branding but they should have an anchor in a frame painted on the side to indicate they have no loading gauge restrictions. BR operated a number of vehicles only partly modified for ferry use which had the anchor marking. Ferry stock was all fitted with screw couplings and until the 1980's the buffers used were heavier than the British standard designs, they also carry non-standard lettering and a 12 digit international ferry wagon number in place of the usual national number marking
International services have their own numbering system, introduced in the 1960's, with a twelve digit number for each vehicle. The first two numbers identify the continent, Europe is 21. The next two numbers show the country in which the vehicle is registered, 70 for Britain, 88 for Belgium, 80 for Germany, 83 for Italy. The next three numbers identify the type of vehicle; 279 for bogie vans, 414 for low sided open wagons, 749 for chemical tanks, 464 for bogie coil wagons etc. The final group of numbers identify the actual wagon, the last digit is separated by a hyphen and serves as a computer check. The remaining lettering follows the standard for each vehicle's home country, although some markings, such as 'Hazchem' symbols are to internationally agreed standards.
Regards
Mike

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That's the UIC numbering system, then.
However, I recall lots of 4-axle wagons with 33 as the first two digits.
Why?

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The first two digits do NOT represent the continent- they identify things such as :- two-axle vehicle which may be used on both Iberian and standard gauges, four-axle ditto, whether a wagon may be used on any UIC railway or whether it is subject to exceptions, whether a wagon is privately-owned or not etc. A second pair of digits then identifies the railway administration with which the wagon is registered. There then follow a sequence of numbers which give the broad general type of vehicle and its running number, finally followed by a check-digit. Brian

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Many thanks - I am still on dial up (six weeks and counting since I placed the order with talk talk) so checking this kind of thing costs a fortune.

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I'll have a look for some more gen. There was/is a Yahoo group with details of things like this, but I don't seem to be able to access it at present. They're called 'exchange codes' BTW Brian

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Try http://www.gbrail.org.uk/ or http://www.uicstock.org.uk/ or http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/uicstock / I was a great fan of the original gbrail site when it covered British stuff; the site now covers the things that this thread is about. It's run by The Doctor, who sometimes posts here.

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Which one? We are suffering from a surfeit of Doctors on this group at the moment. And there was me thinking it was vicars that were traditionally rail enthusiasts.

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Rob Vlland, who was the original user of the Doctor alias. Brian

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Wasn't the original some old bloke with a Tradis?
Richard

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Some old bloke with a funny old car and a black bag. "Janet, Janet!"
Sam

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Didnt she suffer from heartburn ?
Cheers, Simon

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Oooh, Doctor Finlay! (Actually, the old bloke was Dr. Cameron.)

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.... and a Tardis
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Correct - well, almost, just needs an 'o' inserting. Not the one who posts as 'The Real Doctor', and definitely not 'The Good Doctor'.