EMU maroon livery

wrote

The Hornby Dublo (2 & 3-rail) EMU was produced in green livery and numbered as a Southern Region unit, but I believe the model was actually based on a 'Watford' LMR EMU.

When Wrenn took over much (if not all) of the Dublo tooling, the EMU appeared in one (or more) of their catalogues in maroon livery, although I don't believe any models were actually produced.

I assume therefore that the prototype 'Watford' EMUs were painted maroon - were these class 309?

John.

Not sure on that (this is a new area for me), what I have on the 309s . . .

Class 309 (originally AM9) Introduced in 1962 for operations from Liverpool Street on the former GER lines they were supplied in four, three and two car units. The pantograph was mounted above the guards compartment, on two car units this was behind the drivers cab at one end, on three and four car units it was on an inner car toward the centre of the train. By the time these units were delivered the 'arm and elbow' pantograph had been developed and these units were fitted with that type from new. One small point to note is that the 'elbow' was toward the end of the coach (usual on EMUs) but in the case of the two-car 309s this put the pantograph the opposite way round to that on the contemporaty electric locomotives. Originally painted in maroon they then went though the changes to BR Blue and Network South East. In the 1970s additional coaches were added, adapted from Mk 1 loco hauled stock. In the mid

1990s they were withdrawn but a few were sent to the Manchester area where they operated as three car sets until withdrawal in about 2000 (most still in NSE livery I believe but one set was repainted in Manchester Airport aircraft blue promotional livery). The front is actually fibreglass and uses the same design as the Trans Pennine Class 124 DMU, although that unit did not have a gangway door (some of the 309s may have lacked the gangway door as well but I am not sure about that)

Regards

Mike

I *think* these were maroon:-

John.

"John Turner" wrote

and these:-

but not quite sure about these

John.

Yup, the Oerlikon pictured above, and the old Merseyrail EMUs (later Class

502/503) were originally painted LMS (later BR) maroon up until withdrawal, but I believe the Tyneside unit in your other post was BR multiple unit green after nationalisation. Out of the units built under BR, only the Class 309s 'Clactons' wore maroon, as they were intended as 'Intercity' units, intended for London-Leeds(!) services under the original ECML electrification plan of the 1960s.

No the BR built Watford units were normal suburban EMUs and were painted green. The earlier Watford units were in LMS Maroon and probably kept it till withdrawal but they had gone by the time I used the line in the 60s.

Class 309s were 'Express' units for the Colchester and Clacton trains on the Great Eastern. Keith

>

Weren't the Watford EMUs' Class 501? Working the North London line between Broad St and Richmond and also Euston-Watford services.

Cheers, Mick

Correct. Later Class 501.

[snip]

Correct - from introduction in 1962/3 until the blue/grey period c1966 they were painted in BR lined maroon, with yellow gangway interior surrounds on the driving ends.

I'm a bit concerned that some wrong information is being put forward on this thread, and want to try to set the record straight before somebody wastes a lot more than just paint(!):

As soon as possible after nationalisation, *all* extant EMUs were painted 'stock green', in simple terms a slightly darker version of SR malachite. For example, this URL shows the two earlier types of EMU serving the LNWR/NLR lines in BR days:

Some changes then took place around 1959/60 when a move was made to a darker green - best described as 'army colour', with cream lining in the case of AC stock on the LMR, *some* Class 501 DC stock in the LMR London area, and on the 1959 stock built for the 1200V DC Manchester-Bury line. LMR Manchester- Altrincham and Merseyside, the ER and the NER also used the darker shade, but with no lining.

AFAIK this darker shade never found its way on to the SR, BICBW.

Exceptions were the ScR Glasgow Electric AM3/303 stock, painted 'Caledonian' blue and the aforementioned AM9/309 ER stock, painted BR lined maroon.

Having reasonably definitive sources of information, I believe the above is correct, and I hope some others can and will confirm or correct this where appropriate.

HTH

All the best,

Iain

'You need to be very careful when drawing up a specification, otherwise you risk getting what you ask for rather than what you want.'

Not up until withdrawal... I remember blue ones.

Although over here there's a maroon one - not sure I remember them.

-- Rod

Oops, badly worded - should have been the LMS Oerlikon units that just carried maroon to the end. :) The Merseyrail units did of course carry blue, and blue/grey, and one unit was kept by BR for special workings, repainted in LMS maroon with full yellow ends.

Agreed, from personal observations on the North London line in from '57 onwards, all the EMU's were in BR Green Livery. The 501's were indeed in a darker shade, most noticeable at Richmond where we changed trains for Windsor.

I've a B&W photo somewhere of a 309 DT at Ilford, in "Main Line" maroon, stored there with the other trailers, until the motor coaches were delivered.

HTH, David C.

Class 501 650V dc 3rd rail - Three-car`North London Broad Street to Richmond` EMUs. This line was electrified (3rd rail) in 1914 and the original stock ran for close on 40 years. The resulting Class 501 replacements built in the later 1950s had to be 57 feet long to fit the line and had bars on opening windows due to tight clearances on the line. I believe they were withdrawn in the later 1980s.

Mike

I was a bit doubtful about starting on multiple units (the main thrust of the work is freight), it is a lot of work for trains that only ran on a single line. Ah well, having started I'll keep going

Thanks for the help chaps

Mike

Point of order. The LNWR Electrification was on the 4 rail system as still used by the London Underground (DLR Excepted). using this system enabled Tube Trains to reach Watford Junction.later it allowed District line electric trains to reach Richmond from Gunnesbury Junction. ISTR that the LNWR nominally owned some tube stock as part of the arrangement.Not sure if the LMS ever did though I think the LNER owned some of the 1938 stock for the eastward extensions to the Central. They had ownership plates on the sole bars and possibly a few survive on the Isle of Wight making them the last big four stock in daily service.

The four rail system lasted well in to the 1970's when the lines and the stock was converted to third rail still remains .Active 4th rail still remains where LU still share the lines. Out to Watford the 4th rail is still roughly in place though a lot just rests on the sleepers and it's a bit wiggly in places. Though the Trains no longer directly connect to it its survival is supposedly down to the fact that it still acts as a return path in conjunction with the Running rails. Its often forgotten the GWR owned some electric stock as well. Some ended up on Merseyside during WW2 . Fortunately the Mersey railway was a Four rail system at the time.

G.Harman

"Iain Wilkie Logan" wrote

I can confirm that the 1938 built LMS sliding door electric multiple units on the Liverpool - Southport 3rd rail line went from LMS maroon to BR green. There was never a "BR maroon" period.

Dave W.

Thanks for the clarification, I had not understood the situation (I had thought the SR switched to 3 rail service)

GWR as well???? Oh dear oh dear, here we go again

Thanks for the posting

Mike

Via Jaffa Cake livery in the case of many of these units, but I dont know if they all received a repaint.

The Hammersmith and City line was joint GWR and Met.

The SR was 3 rail, (after they converted the LBSCR's overhead) but the LNWR was not part of the SR. Keith