I can't help but smile ...

What are you using to control the points? I have a rather smaller layout in the garden and sorting out the points is on the todo list.

Mark Thornton

Mark Thornton wrote in news:xtZ9h.579$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe7-win.ntli.net:

Then why have it? As I understand it acc/dec is one of the "bells and whistles" that make dcc worthwhile.

Don't want to enter a game of one-upmanship but when my eldest was 5 he had his first train set. Hornby mixed goods, dc. It didn't him long at all to work out how to make track live.

Now he's 9 he's quite happy playing around with isolating sections. He has a working knowledge of OHMs law, can wire simple circuits himself, can tell the difference between wiring a collection of loads in parallel to wiring in series (say the lamps we?re currently installing over a section of covered track), over the autumn term he did his ?Victorian? project, whilst most of his class printed a few pictures from the internet and wrote a few pages *he* built a 4? long model of the Clifton suspension bridge ? he even soldered the suspension wires ... as well as producing plans, drawings and written work. My daughter 18 months younger and who has a SEN statement (speech and language) isn?t to far behind. She can also wire simple circuits, operate isolating sections etc etc

They wouldn?t have learnt any of all this if they were simply told that everything works by the magic of black boxes.

With these two I'm experimenting. I'm using a slide switch connected to the tiebar. Once it's all connected up, I'll take a photo, and put it on my web pages. I don't know what will happen with the electrical connections in the slide switch: if it doesn't work well enough after a year or so, I'll change to something else, perhaps using an enclosed microswitch for the polarity switching.

The idea is to sort out some kind of manual switching, because it's not really necessary to have powered points at that place in the layout. Other places are different, of course.

Nice

You've got that with DC as well. But most of us don't need it. Back when I still lived in the UK I had a Gaugemaster inertia controller, but not having a round-and round I always ran out of room to use it effectively.

Eventually I found that I got smoothest control by setting the throttle permanently at full, using the brake to give smooth starting and stopping.

Sound and the possibility of using DCC modules for things like uncoupling anywhere, turning on carriage lights etc would be the reason for me to go that way.

Incidentally the Gaugemaster was better than any of the controllers I have been able to get in the USA. Most of them make my motors buzz, apart from the MRC Control Master 20 which is a rare (for the USA) flat line DC from a voltage regulator.

I thought you were complaining about its presence on the locos you tried to control? I like it, but I also like being able to turn it off.

My eldest son (now 10) also has a statement for significant learning difficulties in all areas. While it would be nice if he understood the electrical aspects, I am happy that he learns the operation of trains. Simplicity of wiring is also an advantage with the layout being in the garden.

Many of our goods now are black boxes to the majority of the population.

Mark Thornton

"Mark Thornton" wrote

Why do you go into the shed for just the curve ? Or have you changed away from the plan show ? I was expecting a hidden fiddle yard or something. ???

Still, very impressive. Better than my previous efforts !

Andy

Chris...in one of your earlier posts in this thread you mentioned that you didn't like the acc/dec feature when you tested DCC.....then in the present post you are questioneing why even have the feature if it can be turned-off(see quote below)...it seems to me that that is a plus of DCC...if you don't like that particular feature you can turn it off and throttle your locos up to speed and throttle down to a stop exactly as you would with DC control...and for those that like the acc/dec feature, then they can turn it on and use it if they so wish......just more versatility and option depending on the users desire. To be frank I don't have DCC but I finally got to run a DCC loco on my friends layout and although the acc/dec feature took some getting used to, I over ran a number of stopping points :o)) I enjoyed the challenge of learning the how to account for the deceleration to stop accurately at a particular spot. It only took me about 15 minutes to learn how to stop the loco accurately at a particular spot and after that it was really most enjoyable. Cheers Gene

uk, reply address is spamtrapped.

"Chris Wilson" wrote

"Andy Sollis CVMRD" wrote

have you tried (had a go) with DCC or are you just going on what you have read so far ?

So does your car or bike or bus stop dead the moment you take your foot off the accelorator ? NO. You need to brake, so why shopuld the model train stop dead cos you turn off the power ? I find it puts some of the fun back into what is starting at times to become a dull hobby with some of the attitudes that are coming forward about the hobby "progressing". When all is said and done, what was the last major update of a model railway (other than a manufacturer brining out a new model/chassis etc).... I think it was probably going from clockwork to electric, or loosing that third rail that came from Liverpool. Why should we not intergrate some of our 20th century developments and make it better ?

And why should fitting a chip and controlling from a black box make it uneducational for a kid ? With some of the bad chassis about, they can still learn soldering iron skills and insulating circuits by trying to fit a decoder to some of these split chassis designs !

As others have also said, the feature can be tunred off.

Did you have a handheld controller or desk controller ?

Personal choice Chris. I should ask Steve Weeks at SWD how many chips he sells a week with sound on to find if it or isn't for the typical enthusiast, which I won't be cruel and ask you to define ! :-)) It again just adds an "optional" dimesion, like the working lights. Granted, some do not even like them in their diesel models. I love it !

Don't knock DCC coz it's not for you... I don't like football, but it still doesn't stop me talking about it now and again with the lads at work. (yes, your right, the girls are not interested !)

Andy :-) P.S. Where in the world are you ?

Mark Thornton wrote in news:dA_9h.31150$ snipped-for-privacy@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net:

No, I'm not complaining, far from it I was pointing out that I didn't like it - granted other people do and for them it's one of the significant differences that make dcc worth the extra investment. I went on to point out that it appears a little silly to pay for extra features that aren't going to be used.

...

It's a PITA, you get the statement, and with proper support the child makes improvements but then because the child has made improvements the level of support is dropped and lo and behold the child's rate of improvement slips back again. It's all purse strings and short-termism. Trying to get it into certain peoples heads that proper sustained investment when the child is younger will save them a fortune when it's older just falls on deaf ears or worse still, "but that will be from someone else's budget"

Anyway I did say that I "Don't want to enter a game of one-upmanship" all I was trying to do was illustrate was a point that I feel is significant and that is dc wiring provides - for those who have the necessary interest/potential significantly more learning opportunities than dcc.

...

Granted, and the poeple who make, service and install the black boxes are the ones who get the better jobs ... and they don't learn how to do that without first learning the basics.

BTW like your garden layout.

"gene" wrote in news:ZU_9h.48669$ snipped-for-privacy@wagner.videotron.net:

It's my layout and I'm the user :-)

(granted the ankle biters get driving privilages)

Been there done that :-)

yup but then what?

In message , gene writes

I agree. I have one loco which has a brake feature (F7 produces the sound of the brakes being applied, and when the speed is set to 0 it will increase the deceleration level, effectively applying the brakes), so for this loco I have set the deceleration level to 255. From full speed it takes 62 yards to stop if I change the speed setting to zero and do not touch F7. If I keep F7 pressed continuously, it takes 8 yards to stop from full speed. Driving the loco under these conditions is very enjoyable.

"Andy Sollis CVMRD" wrote in news:ek9u6t$gt0$ snipped-for-privacy@aioe.server.aioe.org:

...

I've expressed myself poorly, you are quite right in what you say above, however I as the drive still retain full control over the car, it slows at a rate of my choosing and I determine that rate through my physical intervention. Lets turn your point on it's head, when you press the brake on your car it's doesn't take control away from you and slow at a rate of it's own choosing, you control the whole process and are free to dynamically alter the process on a whim as you see fit though your own physical intervention.

Well horses for courses, I actually enjoy construction more than operating which I put on a par with research. In fact for the last month the only trains I've run are (1) track cleaning trains ... my layout's in a very dusty garage added to which much of it runs through tunnels and (2) light engine movements on the main running lines just to make sure that the motors don't lock up in the damp and dusty environment.

I think that the variety of interest adds strength and interest to the hobby it always strikes me that there is so much to learn and so many folks to learn from.

Why not indeed? Like I said, horses for courses.

Where did I say that? I think that the entire hobby is educational in itself, vast opportunities for development in literacy, numeracy, historical research, practical skills of many types and yes I include dcc in that. My point is that for the younger child (or unacquainted adult) dc provides greater opportunities than dcc

Couldn?t agree more

When I played with dcc? If so the answer?s "yes" :-)

That is 2 with Lentz handheld?s and 1 with a sooper dooper ZTC base unit thingie (that also had a handheld plug in thingimijig)

Again granted.

I?d rather talk with interesting girls :-)

Biggin Hill, Kent ... formally Lancashire, I wouldn?t want anyone to think that I was native to these parts. :-)

I'm not sure what updates there could appropriately be really, given that most modellers think the world stopped being interesting in [1]/1923/1948/1968/199x...

I suppose there are now computer-generated railway simulators, but are they so different from physical model railways that they don't count?

There are other features that I am using --- I have fitted lights to some and sound to one. Extra features we don't use are common on anything built with microchips.

I don't think DCC offers less opportunities for learning, just different ones.

Most of them aren't serviced any more, just swapped out. You don't need to know how DCC decoders work to install and use them. Long ago I studied the control theory relevant to BEMF motor speed control, but that knowledge doesn't give me any advantage in using a decoder with BEMF.

Thanks, my wife was glad to get the layout out of the house!

Mark Thornton

I wish I had the space to try that.

Mark Thornton

Anything which allows the model to be a more accurate visual/audio representation of the period being modelled. So a good sound system could add to a model of any period (none of the prototypes were/are silent). Better smoke and steam generators.

Mark Thornton

Actually you do lose at least some control if you brake too hard, either because you skid or the car's computer takes over and adjusts the breaking force for you.

With a loco I would set the acc/dec to match the maximum acceleration and deceleration the prototype can achieve. Then I can slow down or speed up more slowly if a I wish, but if I misjudge it then yes I hit the buffers or whatever. Jane Sullivan illustrates an alternative as her system has a brake and so can manage two different deceleration values.

Mark Thornton

Thanks. The track doesn't go into the shed, just very close to the shed wall. The low voltage power does emerge from the shed at that point. The only reason is to allow a 24" radius curve while not coming too far out into the rest of the garden and obstructing the walk way. It also provided an excuse for a tunnel which children always like.

All the track is Peco code 75, with Peco electrofrog points.

Mark Thornton

What I have in mind puts the (micro) switches under the layout and thus protected to some extent from the weather. To do this I intend running a rod through the layout in a close fitting tube. Pieces of brass are soldered/or screwed to the top and bottom of the rod so that the rod rotates as point tie bar moves. I can then use either wire in tube or a Tortoise type motor to move the points from below.

Mark Thornton