Sand trains

Hi,
I'm struggling with a new layout I'm building at the moment. I'm
modelling (artistic licence) part of our line (The Churnet Valley Railway)
before we took it over and when BR used it for hauling its sand trains over.
Now it is well documented the locos that were used to carry this fine silica
sand to places like St Helens or making into glass and bottles, but apart
from the later years, I find it had to track down what wagons were used to
convey the sand.
In the last few years, it was carried in the hopper wagons with roofs, like
the BIS wagon that farish once made. However, I'm modelling in OO and the
sand hopper works!
I'm guessing along the lines of any metal bodied wagons in the 1960s like
Minerals (MCOs?) and the hoppers like the NE\BR 20t wagons. Can anyone
confirm please?
Best Wishes
Reply to
Andy Sollis- Churnet Valley model Railway Dept.
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Hi Andy.
When I used to work in Cambridge TOPS office, the sand from Fen Drayton was carried in HTV's, running as class 9 (with brake van) from FD to Cambridge where BV was removed and train carried on as class 6. Wagons were unsheeted/uncovered.
HTH
Dave.
Reply to
Dave Potter
Further...
Hornby used to make BIS sand hoppers (PGA's IIRC). I got some off eBay yonks ago, they have removable 'sand' loads' but don't know if the loads were original or not.
HTH (reprise)
Dave.
Reply to
Dave Potter
Dave, Excuse the lack of knowledge, can you explain the Class 6 & 9 ?
I know what you mean about unsheeted wagons - our line is like a sandpit in places, it buggers the sleepers up (on the sections not yet open to passengers) and Oakamoor with still having the Hopper is nick named "Blackpool" ! for the tower, sand and river close by..! And it is often cold and wet!
Interesting you say the Brake van was removed.... When would this practice have dies out? I can't find any pictures on our line of a brake van on the train, although, I confess, most photos are of the locomotives!
Thanks very much!
Andy
Hi Andy.
When I used to work in Cambridge TOPS office, the sand from Fen Drayton was carried in HTV's, running as class 9 (with brake van) from FD to Cambridge where BV was removed and train carried on as class 6. Wagons were unsheeted/uncovered.
HTH
Dave.
Reply to
Andy Sollis- Churnet Valley model Railway Dept.
I worked for a couple of years near the Stoke end of your line (Victoria Road, near Joiners' Square), and used to see the daily train descend- whilst I lived thereabouts, the train was usually the preserve of a 25, or sometimes the last 24, 24081. Stock for the sand trains was normally the smaller type of BR Iron Ore hopper, similar, but not identical to, the type modelled by Mainline and later, Bachmann. Off-hand, I can't remember if the wagons were sheeted or not. There was normally a fitted head of hoppers, but as these wouldn't have given sufficent brake force on the descent, they were supplemented by some ex-Ford pallet vans and banana vans, which would be stabled at Cockshute. Unlike the sand from Fenny Drayton, this sand was destined for industrial use- chiefly by the glassworks at St Helens. I seem to remember (we're talking of 25+ years ago now..) that the train would be combined sometimes at Leekbrook with stone traffic from Caldon Low, which comprised aggregate in (at that point brand-new) MTV opens and larger stones for the Thames Barrier carried on vacuum-fitted plate wagons. After I left the area, I believe BIS invested in a fleet of air-braked hoppers, though I suspect the traffic disappeared soon after. Brian
Reply to
BH Williams
"Andy Sollis- Churnet Valley model Railway Dept." wrote
Early and later CovHops at:
formatting link
John.
Reply to
John Turner
Must admit that I can't remember Covhops on these trains. Such modern, 50mph stock (and I mean the BR-built ones!), would have been welcome, as the ex-iron-ore wagons were restricted to 35 mph. This caused inevitable pathing problems on the WCML. Brian
Reply to
BH Williams
I worked for a couple of years near the Stoke end of your line (Victoria Road, near Joiners' Square), and used to see the daily train descend- whilst I lived thereabouts, the train was usually the preserve of a 25, or sometimes the last 24, 24081. Stock for the sand trains was normally the smaller type of BR Iron Ore hopper, similar, but not identical to, the type modelled by Mainline and later, Bachmann. Off-hand, I can't remember if the wagons were sheeted or not. There was normally a fitted head of hoppers, but as these wouldn't have given sufficent brake force on the descent, they were supplemented by some ex-Ford pallet vans and banana vans, which would be stabled at Cockshute. Unlike the sand from Fenny Drayton, this sand was destined for industrial use- chiefly by the glassworks at St Helens. I seem to remember (we're talking of 25+ years ago now..) that the train would be combined sometimes at Leekbrook with stone traffic from Caldon Low, which comprised aggregate in (at that point brand-new) MTV opens and larger stones for the Thames Barrier carried on vacuum-fitted plate wagons. After I left the area, I believe BIS invested in a fleet of air-braked hoppers, though I suspect the traffic disappeared soon after. Brian
Brian, Thanks for this... It all sounds familiar and fits. I've looked at a few sites and the HTVs look like the Hornby 20T wagons in grey, so for now, I will use these. Until someone does the later covered hoppers with working roofs, I will need to anyway!
The fortunate thing is that it can only take 6 at a time as my model will also have a bank to work up, so maybe 6 on the main and another six being loaded, maybe the odd extra but 15 wagons should see me through. Now, let me see... Class 20, 25, 37, 40, 45,47.....Hmm... all in blue! grand!
Andy
Reply to
Andy Sollis- Churnet Valley model Railway Dept.
"John Turner" wrote Early and later CovHops at:
formatting link
John.
The one on the left is definatly the ones we had on the CVR in the final days.... But as to the other one? Looks like the HTV extended, possibly as a mockup for the one on the left? or to increase capacity and stop half the load being lost on route! Very Interesting! Thanks john!
Andy
Reply to
Andy Sollis- Churnet Valley model Railway Dept.
"Andy Sollis- Churnet Valley model Railway Dept."
Just by chance, I've found a copy of 'The Churnet Valley Railway', dated 1974, and probably bought in Webberleys in Hanley. There are a few photos of interest in this :- On page 48, a shot of the Sroke steam crane lifting a derailed wagon at Leek clearly shows an Iron-Ore hopper loaded with sand. On page 39 is a photo of an 8f hauling a Oakamoor- Widnes sand train, the first few wagons appearing to be 13t low-sided sand wagons. On page 83 is a shot , taken in 1973, of the BIS sidings at Oakamoor. Looking at the wagons, ore hoppers predominate, but there are also 13t sand tipplers, 16t minerals and 27t ore tipplers. Will the model be on display at Cheddleton ? I ask because mother-in-law lives up the road at Werrington, and we sometimes go to the Boat (?) at Cheddleton for lunch when visiting her. Brian
Reply to
BH Williams
Class 6 - fully fitted Class 9 - unfitted (25mph)
The trains I mentioned worked class 9 with a brake van between Cambridge and Fen Drayton as the train crew had to open/close numerous level crossings between Chesterton Junction and Fen Drayton, although, in fact, the train was fully fitted (vacuum braked of course).
Only HTV's were used, never Covhops etc. (covhops we used for grain from Newmarket etc. but that's another story).
After I'd left Cambridge TOPS (47230 was the location code) for Ipswich TOPS (49200) I believe they started using some different wagons but these I think were bogie hoppers (of foreign appearance?).
HTH Dave.
Reply to
Dave Potter
Andy,
Sorry for not chipping in sooner on this, but for many years Hornby produced their Prestwin wagon in a bauxite livery and nicely lettered :-
"To work between British Industrial Sand Co. sidings Oakamoor and Port Sunlight"
I assume that the fine sand was used in Lever Bros. "Vim" scouring powder as they are based at Port Sunlight. (Sunlight soap)
It is numbered B873001 and an ex-works photo of the prototype appears in one of my wagon books but I can't put my hand on it at the moment.
The wagon has plenty of pipe detail on the top and was produced in self coloured plastic as well as painted versions. It does however look very toy like but this can be much improved by fitting the body on to a Bachmann wagon chassis of the size used on their salt wagons, and I think the china clay ones. At least the buffers are then the correct height.
I have seen no photos of the wagons actually in use on the line though which is very strange, and I do have most of the books about the Churnet Valley Railway.
See you tonight at the volunteers annual bash!
Dave W.
Reply to
David Westerman
Can't say that I remember seeing these either, though if it were an ex-works photo, it would date it as sometime in the early 1960s. Whilst the H-D Prestwin is rarer than rocking-horse muck, the Dapol kit, which represents the second 'diagram', is still available. These were on 12' w.b. chassis vice 10'(or possibly 10'6'') on the first build, and had secondary springs on the suspension. If you see photos of the two alongside one another (I have one somewhere on the Hindlow branch), the second build had lower bodies. It could be that the very finest grained sand, as might be used in scouring powders, had been used up in later years, so that only coarser-grained sand, such as might be used for glass-making, remained. The types of sand for particular uses are very specific- hence the transport of glass-making sand from Kings Lynn over very long distances. Until the early 1970s, at least, there used to be a sand terminal at Cheadle (which is very close to Oakamor, as you know), but the sand there was only deemed fit for the building trade.When I worked for British Steel in the early-1970s in South Wales, we used to have bulk deliveries of sand for mould making which came by road-tanker from one of the BIS plants in the midlands- possibly Oakamoor- despite there being other sand-pits much closer. Brian
Reply to
BH Williams
Brian said....... ...hence the transport of glass-making sand from Kings Lynn over very long distances...
Middleton Towers was the rail loading point for the sand, used to be an old station, platforms on station building were still standing when I last visited (a few years ago now mind).
Trains used to run into Kings Lynn where loco would run-round and then continue to Ely, where they took the Ely North curve (one of the very few trains which used it), then up to March yard before onward travel to the Doncaster area (mainly).
Dave.
Reply to
Dave Potter
Andy,
Sorry for not chipping in sooner on this, ...... I have seen no photos of the wagons actually in use on the line though which is very strange, and I do have most of the books about the Churnet Valley Railway.
See you tonight at the volunteers annual bash!
Dave W.
Dave, No, thinking about it, nor have I.... The hoppers which I am modelling, the later covered white BIS hoppers, but not the prestwin... Will have a word with DT tonight. Sure he will have soemthing, or maybe even JB....
I need an open wagon as the model works and really drops sand! Photos to follow soon! C U tonight!
Andy
Reply to
Andy Sollis- Churnet Valley model Railway Dept.

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