Newbie wondering about licensing costs...

Let's start this out on a light note and then on to the more serious stuff.

By your definition, what is poetic license or artistic license and where do the fees get paid and tags picked up?

Now, I assume you are familiar with the FAI. If not, do a Google search and find out what it is. The AMA is the official US aeromodeling reprehensive to the FAI. That, in and of itself is all they need to be empowered to issue licenses.

Or, if you prefer, once you have your AMA membership, you can always take the stance that you have a toy license to be a toy pilot to fly a toy airplane.

OK, Paul, enlighten us, please? NOT that I plan on moving to the UK anytime soon.... BUT you guys build some really BIG, NICE models!

Oh but Sir, you are so in error. You sound rather juvenile in that you think things are as you WANT them rather than what really IS in the real world where mommy and daddy can't always take care of you. The AMA Bylaws were designed by a few people of the day to contain total power within the Executive Council (EC). The EC has and protects that power with much ardor. OTOH, one might consider that you could well be correct as the vast majority of AMA members rather sit on their butts and disregard the election of persons that think more of the promotion of model aviation than self-serving status. In that case the membership does convey upon the AMA total control.

Since even a broken clock is right twice a day, I have to say in this case AMA's self-designated soothsayer and lackey, JR, is correct about the license portion. AMA can issue a license, your membership card, which grants you permission to be an AMA member and to enter AMA sanctioned activities.

Your definitions are somewhat short;

"License" is a transitive verb: "to permit or authorize especially by formal license : to give permission or consent to" and ALSO a noun: "1 a : permission to act b : freedom of action"

Therefore the AMA does have the authority to issue that REAL license which is a license for AMA's designated activities. Such authority results from the legal Bylaws established under the rights of AMA Corporate Resolutions and corporate charter.

Sorry sonny, sometimes the milk just ain't always in the 'frigh.

Horrace

Hi Phil

I have often been referred to as an AMA basher, so the point I will try to put across is in the interest of clearing up misunderstandings, certainly in no way to pick a fight.

Because the AMA is partially self-insured they do need a lot of money in reserve. They (we) are responsible for the first $250,000 of each claim once the members primary insurance has been exhausted. The money has been built up over a long period of time and is not something new. I wondered if Dave's letter was not just a little.. humm.. revisionist? I guess my feeling is that I would about as soon see the money invested in real estate as to see it in a bank at 1% or in stocks. We have seen some of that over the last few years with less then stellar results.

I think you have to realize that the AMA is not a new organization. It was founded a lot of years ago. The same principles are in place now that were then, including the promotion of competition and the preservation of aeromodeling history. They offer a lot of services that are not apparent to the casual observer. Recently the function of interacting with the government is in full view. It never stopped, but had been almost forgotten since it was not in the light of day as it is now. Many of the functions of the AMA are like that. They occur day to day without much notice.

Now, when it comes to the national flying site, my complaint is different than yours. Keeping the NATS in one location may be cost effective, but, it does not promote the hobby the way a traveling NATS once did/would. Something on the order of 2,3 or $4 of my dues goes to the national flying site and I have become resigned to that. It simply is not going to change, in my opinion.

Model Aviation Magazine is another issue all together. If you go to the Members Only section on the AMA web page, you will find the current financial statement. When you take the income from MA and subtract the costs and divide by 140,000 adult members, the cost comes out to about $7 per year per member. The AMA has an IRS 501 (3) c educational, non-profit status and is required by the IRS to send to the members a newsletter. MA serves that function. It is highly unlikely that a stand-alone newsletter could be produced and mailed for any less than the cost of MA.

Take a look at the list of staff at HQ on the AMA page and look at the job descriptions. There are a lot of people there. They don't goof off and they don't go home early. They work. The list will give you a good idea of what other functions the AMA serves the members with.

I guess my biggest gripe is that the AMA does not communicate what IS going on very well. The fact that people do not read MA or even the AMA web site, where a lot of information is, must be overcome by the AMA or the membership will continue to think of it as no more than an insurance company.

If you can't see value in what the AMA is, you are certainly not alone and that is the fault of the AMA.

To any of you that don't know Horrace Cain, let me introduce him. He is the ex Dist 6 VP and the current wannabe Dist 8 VP.

Horrace

I wanna ask you something. What is it about the fact that, although I have absolutely no political aspirations within the AMA, and that I can write to the EC members, as any AMA member can, and get answers, that drives you and Bill Lee to distraction?

You just insulted someone you do not know, nor are you likely to know (not me).

What in the world is wrong with you?

JR

JR,

We're talking within the realm of the club here. Try to allow those non-members to participate in an AMA sanctioned event? Fun Fly's are not not much better. And even then, the AMA is very explicit as to who they will cover and who they will not. Not that I blame them for that. But the bottom line is, the insurance is the hook for increased membership! And the AMA desires to monopolize that aspect as much as they can!

And this whole thing about letting non-members fly? That goes back to the origins of the SFA and the issues surrounding that whole fiasco.

"The AMA is the official US aeromodeling reprehensive"? Freudian slip there JR? :)

Hmmm! Jumps in and imediately talks down to the one he's responding to! How to make friends and influence people! Is this the makings of a DVP? Let's see:

"You sound rather juvenile in that you think things are as you WANT them rather than what really IS in the real world where mommy and daddy can't always take care of you."

Then he moves on to the membership at large: "one might consider that you could well be correct as the vast majority of AMA members rather sit on their butts and disregard the election"

Of course, he then finishes up with sour grapes because he can't get elected to office and is being ignored: "disregard the election of persons that think more of the promotion of model aviation than self-serving status"

Then of course, he has to jump on someone else as well: "AMA's self-designated soothsayer and lackey, JR"

Yep! The real makings of a DVP. Lucky Dist VIII! Should be an interesting election.

Oh, and let us not forget the english lesson! Making sure that we all know there are several ways to use the word, "license".

Get a clue Horrace! Your approach towards those you disagree with SUCKS! If you want people to vote for you you need to learn more about english than just the definitions you spout. You need to learn HOW to talk to people with respect even when you disagree. But before you can do that, you have to learn how to respect yourself.

It's time you retired Horrace and leave the AMA and its business to those younger and smarter!

A sanctioned event is not within the realm of the club, although a club may sponsor a sanctioned event. When an AMA CD sanctions an AMA event, a different set of rules apply. One of those is, as you state, that only AMA members may participate.

When it comes to a club, let me ask you this. Why would I, as a club member who puts sweat, tears, and money into a club field, want to put that at risk, as well as myself financially, by letting a non-AMA member participate and creating a potential liability problem?

Let me give you an example. A non-club member who is flying at a non-sanctioned fly-in sets up a chair. One of the members wives trips over it and breaks her back. She sues the club for liability. The action of the non-club member is not covered. The members of the club are held responsible. Forget that it's not fair, the tort system has little to do with fairness. Are you willing to put everything you own on the line to let a non-member fly? That is the decision each club must make. The AMA does not make the decision for the club.

JR

| >AMA has no authority that we (as R/C pilots, club members, etc.) have | >not given it.

I should have said `no authority over us or the hobby' instead of just `no authority', because of course the AMA has authority over what they own themselves.

| Oh but Sir, you are so in error. You sound rather juvenile in that | you think things are as you WANT them rather than what really IS in | the real world where mommy and daddy can't always take care of you.

Always on the campaign trail, I see!

| The AMA Bylaws were designed by a few people of the day to contain | total power within the Executive Council (EC). The EC has and | protects that power with much ardor.

So, how long until the AMA stormtroopers come down to the local slope and arrest those they find flying without an AMA license? Or the local park -- those park fliers are dangerous, and require AMA protection!

| OTOH, one might consider that you could well be correct as the vast | majority of AMA members rather sit on their butts and disregard the | election of persons that think more of the promotion of model | aviation than self-serving status.

The `vast majority of AMA members' don't care about the AMA's internal politics at all. They just want to go fly their planes.

| In that case the membership does convey upon the AMA total control.

Total control over the AMA itself, and it's assets (which it seems to have been very busy accumulating lately), and precious little power outside of that realm that other people haven't explicitly given it, you mean. | Since even a broken clock is right twice a day, I have to say in this case | AMA's self-designated soothsayer and lackey, JR, is correct about the license | portion. | | AMA can issue a license, your membership card, which grants you | permission to be an AMA member

Ok, fair enough. In that sense, I'll agree with the use of `license'.

And in much the same way, I could sell licenses to use my toilet. (Fortunately, there's no club, and few sanctioned activities beyond an occasional scrubbing.) Of course, nobody would think that they'd need a license from me to use a toilet that's not mine, but there are certainly lots of people out there that think they need a `license' from the AMA to fly R/C planes (anywhere), and the AMA certainly seems to encourage this. (Think of the AMA's talk about getting the park flier pilots to join.)

Compare this to a pilot's license, which requires training and testing. If you fly a plane (larger than a model or ultralight) without a pilot's license, even over your own property, the police

| and to enter AMA sanctioned activities.

Now, this is what I was referring to -- this authority comes from the organizers of the activity, not from the AMA. If a club has a fly-in and decides that only AMA members can participate, that's the club's decision, and not something the AMA gets to decide.

Whomever at the AMA architected the current insurance situation with R/C flying and the AMA truly has done the AMA a great service -- they've ensured that a large percentage of people in the hobby will join their organization and send them money every year. And it's not being done because people want to help the hobby, or because they want to lobby in Washington -- it's done because the clubs require it due to the insurance.

If AMA had not decided to do this (offer insurance, lobby clubs to accept only it's insurance), the clubs would still exist and would probably still require insurance, but the insurance would come from somewhere else, and the AMA would be much smaller than it is today.

| Therefore the AMA does have the authority to issue that REAL license | which is a license for AMA's designated activities. Such authority | results from the legal Bylaws established under the rights of AMA | Corporate Resolutions and corporate charter.

You know, you're making this much too complicated. You don't need legal bylaws, corporate resolutions or corporate charters to give yourself some authority. You just need something that other people want, and then you can sell licenses.

Right On, however it is like all the rest of the world. Cap 2 from Homeland Security will provide all government with the largest *Secret Police Force* ever imagined. The Gestapo and KGB would be country-constables in comparison.

Are the people writing their congressmen? I doubt it. Is the threat real? Well, when I see the Civil Liberties and NAACP climbing into bed with Barr and the American Conservative Union against Cap 2, then I think there is something there. Hell, it doesn't take a legal beagle to figure out what is going to happen when 76 million +/- people will be harassed every year about their basic personal business.

Yes, Doug, the people don't care or give a damn. From our hobby to our freedom. Nothing matters. It will and far too soon.

Of course JR will write a letter to Ridge and Ridge will say, "Never Fear, Homeland Security is here," and JR will feel all snugly and blast me for not getting things from the source.

encourage this.

Very true and proper policies could go a long way to stop this. Unfortunately there are not any on the EC with the Gonads to stand up to such misrepresentation, and the "Vast Majority" are afraid to back those that do. "Jus' wanna' play with my toy."

If >you fly a plane (larger than a model or >ultralight)

Yes, and No. You can legally fly VFR forever on a "Student License" which is simply a current medical. I knew a guy that had well over 3000 hours crop dusting the family farm with a student license. He had to go to school to get a commercial when he decided to expand the business.

BTW I am an ATP.

|>> Corporate Resolutions and corporate charter.

I think that is a matter of perspective. Who does all the work for a sanctioned event? The club! All the AMA does is....."sanction it". And perhaps provide some free propoganda and trinkets. But the club is where the action really is for ANY event.

And who asks said CD to do the event and have it sanctioned? Again, the club.

To answer, let me ask you this. If those non-members had a verifiable form of insurance, what would be your gripe?

But again, it goes to the insurance. The hook the AMA uses. What makes their insurance any better than my State Farm Home Owners? Oh! You want membership as proof? SFA provided that as does UMA now. Will you accept that?

Imagine another organization. Same insurance company, same coverage and equally verifiable as that of the AMA and I gurantee you, the AMA will never allow it to fly in thier events. Why? Because then the AMA might actually have to get off their dead arse and compete for those membership dollars. Can't have that now can we? Good ol' American competition! Free enterprise and all that! Nope! Sure can't!

Spell checker shouldn't have caught it. You spelled it correctly. Just spelled the wrong word! Or so you say! :)

Now you're a fortune teller? Sure wish I could predict what would have happened had events been different. Tell us Horrace, whose the next Microsoft going to be? And are they public yet?

Hi Horrace

Well, I guess one of the reasons that I repeat some of the things that the members of the EC tell me is that they are verifiable, unlike the rhetoric and conspiracy theories you seem to be so fond of. Any member can contact the EC and get what I get. No "connections" needed.

I would suggest to the reader's that if they are AMA members, they proceed to the AMA web page's Members Only section and look in the digital archives of MA. You as the D6 VP in IL, and others had a lot to say there in the years from 1978 to 1983. a search for "AMA news" takes them right to it. But, then, you have characterized it as "drivel" in another forum. Nevertheless, I find it an interesting history lesson. Not just your column, but that of the other VP's, ED and President as well. "Drivel" huh?

It's especially interesting how you ran your write-in campaign back then, or at least it is to me.

JR

Unfortunately

What verifiable form of insurance? A homeowners policy that may or may not be in force? Are yougoing to read every policy on event day to verify that it covers model aircraft activity? Are you going to hire the lawyer to do it for you? HELL NO. You will require AMA and let it go at that. This is a hobby for 99% of us and there is NO reason to make it harder or more complex than it is.

Let me add a couple of things.

The UMA policy does not cover the landlord with the same type of insurance that the AMA does. The UMA does not cover the club with the same type of insurance that the AMA does. There are three types of coverage with the AMA. UMA is limited to one. (Having UMA in addition to AMA is not a bad idea for someone with a lot of assets. It keeps the Homeowners policy out of it longer)

As far as the coverage limits, which is another issue, the UMA is capped at $1 million, the AMA at $2.5 million. If you are the landlord, which would you want?

Now, back to reality, how many people do you personally know that carry $2.5 million in homeowners insurance. How many insurance companies are open on the weekend so the policies could be verified if someone like you was found the be the CD and was willing to make the calls and do the extra work involved?

How many events would just not take place because no one was willing to do all the extra work necessary to allow a non-AMA members to fly?

Why do clubs, which have the final say, make the decison that they make. Why do they not take your position? Could it be that the vast majority of club members are concerned about the welfare of themselves, their families, other club members and their landlord? Could it be that they feel that if an individual does not want to be a member of the AMA, that he need not be, but they are unwilling to assume the risk he may present?

You keep throwing this back in the AMA's lap when the decision is that for the club to make. In the case of a CD sanctioned AMA event, it was the decision of the CD to make. The AMA did not force anyone to either become a CD or to sanction an event. Someone made a choice.

JR

Well may I add my thoughts here . I have a park flyer and last time I was at the local food store I picked up a copy of Model Airplane News. When the clerk rang it up she said she didnt know I was into model planes . She then told me her hubby owned a hobby shop in the next town over . She then asked if I was a member of the AMA and when i told her no , She then told me I needed a license from them to fly any model plane . I told her that was untrue. So for all us new folks out here let me see if i got this right . I only need to join the AMA if my local club say you need to be a member to fly at a field they own? And i only need to become a member of the local club if I want to use their field right ? Also by the same token if I buy a nice plot of land for a model airfield and say you show me insurance and you can fly your plane on my land they dont have to be AMA member right? Matter of fact i could say if you are a AMA member i want better insurance(2 me any company that says your cover but only after all other insurance has been used is really not a policy )

Martin Poles

Martin, to the best of my knowledge, you got it RIGHT.

OTOH, if someone has insurance to cover HIS liability if he damages person or property, that insurance will not necessarily cover you in the suit against you for providing a facility for the other person to hurt someone.

But then you didn't ask that question. You pays yo' money and takes yo' chances.

HC