How draw electrical drawings?

Hope this is the right place for this questions:
1. When making drawings that use symbology such as electrical schematics for PLC and control circuits.....
what SIZE should thee symbols be drawn at
2. Should the symbols be in model space and all text labels be in pspace? Or everything in mspace?
3. Can one draw the WHOLE circuit in mspace and then cut up the diagram to separate sheets using layouts in pspace?
Bottom line.... what proper procedure for such symbolic type drawings?
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I usually put everyhting in model space and then all I have in paperspace is the drawing title border, revisions list etc. Some firms insist on putting all text in paper space for complex models but for electrical diagrams I would ahve thought the text is an integral part of the drawing and not easy to do separately.

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So you put the text for symbol labels in mspace? But put border, etc in pspace right?
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() wrote:

That is what I do also. Use viewports to 'divide' the drawing into sections for printing.
Use blocks for each component. Make your own blocks if you can't get them elsewhere.
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Yes thats generally how most but not everyone draws in AutoCAD:- You draw your model in modelspace and border in paperspace. Sometimes these two entities are completely different drawings. For example if the xref is a floor plan that might be repeated for several drawings you can then xref it into several paperspace drawings so that they all get updated whenever you change the model. I actually xref every model I do into a paperspace drawing even if it isnt going to be repeated elsewhere - means that all of your model drawings are all together and have sensible names like first floor, ground floor etc. Then your paperspace drawings are all together and have proper drawing numbers (eg for architectural layout drawings AL(0)01, AL(0)02 etc). I keep models and paperspace drawings in different folders. Paperspace drawings only have borders, drawing titles, and revision notes on them. Models have everything else - model, blocks, text, dims etc.
You can even xref models into other models for more complexity for example if Im doing a ceiling plan I will often want to xref a floor plan into the ceiling model drawing and draw on the ceiling info over the top in that drawing, then I will xref that drawing (including the xrefed floor plan) into the paperspace drg with the border etc. That way the ceiling drawing never gets too big and still retains an up-to-date link to the floor plan.
Some people do model drawings as xrefs without text or dims etc to keep tham as small as possible and then xref this base model into other models such as ceiling plans, furniture plans etc and then put those into the paperspace drawing with dimensions and text added in the paperspace drawing - this can work quite well in keeping file sizes of base xrefs down which is important for massively complex jobs.
However you do it all you have to watch is that everytime you issue the paperspace drawing with any xrefs inside it you must always "bind in" the xrefs so that they break their link to the original models. That way you can email them etc and the reciever will always be able to view the drawing model correctly. If you dont bind in the xrefs and then send just the paperspace drawing all teh receiver will get is a blank border. The reciever you would have to be sent all of the referenced models along with the paperspace drawing everytime you email it if the xrefs wereent bound in.
Finally to archive the drawing once it has been issued you should copy the paperspace drawing to an archive folder and then bind in the xrefs which again breaks the link of all of the xrefs to their original models and thereby essentially freezes the drawing in that issued state. This way you can keep a series of archived drawings all with different revision letters as a history of your past drawing issues. If you ever need to refer to an old issue you will have it without the need for keeping a paper copy. Binding in xrefs is very important whenever you want to email or freeze the drawing in a certain state when you use xrefs.
Nats

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snipped-for-privacy@NScix.co.uk (Brian Salt) wrote:

You do above in mspace tho, right?
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No you insert the model into modelspace. Then swap to paperspace you create a viewport, then change to tilemode 1, zoom extents to find your model, and then scale it using zoom + "1/(scale)xp" for example to view a model at 1:100 scale you would type zoom and then 1/100xp whilst in the viewport. Then if you want to you can create another viewport - for example you may wish to show a zoomed up view of the model in another scale on the same drawing - just create another viewport whilst in paperspace and tilemode 0, then change to tilemode 1 and click in the viewport you want to use, zoom extents as before and then zoom to scale. Using tilemode 1 you switch between viewports by clicking in them with the mouse.
Essentailly see it as modelspace allowing you to make adjustments to the model itself at a scale of 1:1. Paperspace allows you to make adjustments to the border, drg title and viewport sizes and shapes again all at scale of 1:1. Tilemode 0 in paperspace keeps you at 1:1 in normal paperspace. Tilemode 1 in paperspace allows you to zoom, scale and pan viewports showing the model. Just mess around with paperspace, modelspace, tilemode 0 and 1 and creating viewports at different scales and you will get the idea.
(Brian Salt) wrote:

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fyi: typing "ms" or "ps" toggles the tilemode between paperspace & viewport modelspace
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snipped-for-privacy@privacy.net wrote:

proper is defined by who you are working for.
I wish I did more of these because they are fun. let me tell you my favorite tricks.
every symbol is a block. this makes global edits a snap when the symbol gets changed by some pointy haired boss in another office. sometimes the wiring is overlayed on a floor plan, sometimes it's riser diagrams.
floor plans are pretty much to a particular scale, but I have had riser diagrams grow so much that for clarity I changed the scale I plotted to. another simple thing with a global block edit.
but MY ALL TIME FAVORITE TRICK is to make the outline of the symbol a REGION and give it a positive elevation. then I do not break the line representing the wire, it hides when I plot. if you move, add or delete a device you don't have to edit the wire.......
I love that.
plus, if you are working in somebody else's floor plan, you really want your own layer names to be able to sort things out.
regards,
roy
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Now THAT is a great idea!
I hate breaking lines when inserting symbols.
The thing that abt electronic symbols is that I never know how big to physically draw them in mspace. Since they are "symbols" they have no physical dimensions so how do you draw them 1:1? See what I mean?
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snipped-for-privacy@privacy.net wrote:

yes, exactly. since we seem to be thinking alike I will give you one more thing to chew on.
I like my TEXT to all look the same. call me anal retentive there.
I have a standard text size I want to see on the final print. I adjust the size of the symbol so that the text - plotting through the paper space scaled viewport - comes out to meet my standard text size.
it's a lot easier to do than to explain.
normally, drawing at quarter scale, my text size is 4", my plot scale is 1/48xp which is figured 1/(4*12)xp
8th inch scale also common, 1/(8*12)xp figures 1/96xp
so if I remember my text comes out 1/12" if you lay a scale on the print. always. it looks "right" to me.
so, if I have a device like a smoke alarm with text included I make the text first and draw either a hex or a circle, or whatever the client wants to see, around the text so the symbol looks appropriate to me. then I make my block. if I need to adjust later I just redefine the block.
understand that I work for LOTS of different clients. probably most people work for a single company and have standards to comply with. I ACTUALLY NEED TO MAKE IT UP AS I GO.
.............
while I am on my soapbox. sometimes you have a couple hundred occurances of a block and only want to change some. I like to recreate that block as a nested block , old A becomes B + C. explode all the A's. then erase the inappropriate B's and inappropriate C's.......
lots of ways to manipulate the data when you understand the data base. it's what makes this fun.
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Roy wrote "but MY ALL TIME FAVORITE TRICK is to make the outline of the symbol a REGION and give it a positive elevation. then I do not break the line representing the wire, it hides when I plot. if you move, add or delete a device you don't have to edit the wire....... """ ********************* Could you explain this further? I just tried your idea for me and it did not work. I drew a pline over the block with lines underneath (lines representing siding on a building elevation). Converted that line to a region and tried to elevate the region in the Z direction. I still see the lines underneath. Are you using the region to mask (hide) the Lines underneath? Please elaborate. If I am correct in thinking what you are doing, it would save us a lot of time in revising an elevation.
Thanks Ted.
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Yeah I tried it and wont work for me either.
Maybe he didn't mean a region but something else?
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This might work for you instead. It did for Me. Found this on the AUGI forums Page.
Use a Wipeout behind the block outline. Just make sure your block sits on top of the geometery. The Augi thread made mention of a plotting problem but so far I have not had any issues.
http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t1918 AUGI Forums > AEC > ADT (Architectural Desktop) > ADT 2005 > Mask Blocks
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I have just purchased and installed a Microsoft Wireless Mouse (Wireless Intellimouse Explorer 2.0A) and I am using this with AutoCad 2004LT. The problem is with the 'pan command'. I used to be able to press the wheel and pan by moving the mouse. Everytime I now press the wheel my view moves automatically to the right and disappears off the screen. I have tried uninstalling and running set-up again, I have tried different drivers all to no avail.
Anyone have any ideas as to what the problem may be?
Many thanks - Tony Cotgrove
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Reset MBUTTONPAN.
--


MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca
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in message news:... I have just purchased and installed a Microsoft Wireless Mouse (Wireless Intellimouse Explorer 2.0A) and I am using this with AutoCad 2004LT. The problem is with the 'pan command'. I used to be able to press the wheel and pan by moving the mouse. Everytime I now press the wheel my view moves automatically to the right and disappears off the screen. I have tried uninstalling and running set-up again, I have tried different drivers all to no avail.
Anyone have any ideas as to what the problem may be?
Many thanks - Tony Cotgrove
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Does your mouse wheel bend or tilt side to side? Most of the new mice do this. If yours does this you will have to train your finger to press up and down only, no tilting. Takes awhile to get used to, however I really like the side to side pan that the tilting wheel offers.
J
The Butcher Partnership - Tony Cotgrove wrote:

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