Elevator Cable Knife

I tried pearlite, vermiculite, furnace cement, hard fire bricks, red brick....you get the picture. Ron Riel(sp) has burnner designs, as do I if you need them.

I like boric acid.

I use a 5inch dia. 4 foot long piece of bar stock that I hard faced. We dont need no stinking anvil! (but it would be nice)

Better get some or you will yip a lot! I got kevlar sleeves from MSC.

You wont need any dies till later maybe.

It became obvious to hammer in the direction of the twist real quick.

O Lord! I smell another spat! Heat till it is pumkin orange and plunge in oil. Bake in an old toaster oven at 500 F. This will be in the ballpark for a lot of steels.To get the utmost out of any steel you need to know the rockwell you want in the end, and follow the manufactures directions. The rockwell of the cable knives I have made checks on the low side, but they work well for me. Cable is not going to act like a block of O1. The forge is most likely going to be your firs hurdel. Cable welds at a lower heat than low carbon steel. I had to use Mapp gas to get up to temp un till I got better insulation. I'm in Newport News Va. if ya wanna bring me some beer, I'll give ya the 50 cent tour also. Les

A viewpoint I'd personally hesitate to disagree with.

Weyger's bloody awful book "Complete Modern Blacksmith" - doesn't even mention blacksmithing. Just one of its many serious failings.

-- Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

Jim Hrisoulas' excellent books. "Complete Bladesmith" is a good start, "The Pattern Welded Blade" is excellent, albeit specialised. It goes into detail on cable knives in particular.

His other book "Master Bladesmith" is also good, but does carry some duplication of the others. One only for the really dedicated to the art.

-- Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

Do farriers ever need to weld ?

-- Smert' spamionam

Farriers need to weld in order to forge most types of a class of therapeutic/palliateive shoes called "bar shoes", as well as certain kinds of downward protuberances on horseshoes called "calks."

A kind of calk called a "toe grab" involves either jump welding or copper joinery. Many farriers routinely use copper for joinery in the fire.

All advanced certification test in farriery involve some sort of welding test; some involve both welding and joinery with copper or brass.

I have everything Jim wrote or filmed.

He frequents the forum that I do and he shares a lot of info.

Bob

I don't kknow if Farriers need to forge weld or not, I have never done the job. However, I visited Mr. Stovalls web page and he does more than just Farrier work.

This unfortunate forge welding issue started from a comment I made about not all blacksmiths being able to forge weld. I can forge weld and do so almost every day making pattern welded steel (some say damascus) for knives.

Mr Stovall disagreed with my comment and defended his idea that they all must be able to forge weld. Although I understand his position, and defend his right to disagree, I can only believe the people that tell me they just never got the hang of it. Most people that I know do not lie about NOT being able to do something. I would venture to say that most people that lie claim they can do something they can't.

The modern day blacksmith that is alive today has always had access to welding equipment other than forge welding and the people I know had difficulty forge welding so they took advantage of modern technology. Had they spent more time trying to learn they probably would have picked it up but never bothered. Mr. Stovall admitted he uses welders daily and I agree that he probably would have to if he wanted to make any money doing his work since forge time equates to a lot of hours that using a welder can cut to minutes. The people I know just went there from the start.

Mr Stovall and I got carried away with the discussion because we both (I'll take a shot here) are set in our ways and will defend what we know forever. I would think that if Mr. Stovall were to meet these people and see some of the incredible work they have done with a hammer and anvil for the thirty plus years they have been making a living as blacksmiths, he would soften his point of view.

I have not responded to the other posts in an effort to avoid angering Mr. Stovall further. I am a good guy that likes to help people and I am sure he is the same. We just got off on the wrong foot.

Bob

I forge weld in coal, that's how I originally learned many years ago, and I forge weld with propane, the way I now do all my forge welding. It is a whale of a lot easier and cleaner for a beginner, and no problem with burned steel. I get the impression below that propane forge welding is for some reason more difficult. It is with a poor forge, or inferior burner design. I have known a number of farriers who forge weld in propane, but I also knew a few who have forges that are not capable of reaching forge welding temperatures. From my experience I believe that the burners that many farriers use(d) were poorly designed. That certainly would lead to the idea that propane is not a good fuel for this kind of welding. That is unfortunate for those who believe this to be the case.

As to the original question this post goes back to, I don't see the need today for a smith to have to be able to forge weld, but I also can't understand why anyone would not take the time to learn, due to the variety of things it enables a person to do. I am certainly not a purist, I will use whatever welding technique, or brazing technique, is most suitable for the job at hand, but there are just some things that are best done with a forge weld, and some things that can only be done with a forge weld. To me, it seems that to be a smith who can't forge weld would be like being a plumber who can't solder. It is just one of the techniques or skills of the trade.

Ron

Scott J wrote:

Well, you might make a small one with a torch and a LOT of patience, but you'll go through a lot of gas. Got a rosebud tip? You'll need to get the cable up to bright yellow to start, and reheat when it goes the least bit orange. There's no such thing as too much flux. Wear protective clothing, no synthetics, plastic melts and sticks like napalm. The cable will try to unwind as you work it, keep twisting it tighter.(a small pipe wrench works quite well for this)

Take a cutting torch and melt one end of the cable into a fused lump, then heat it to about cherry and grab the fused end in a vise and tighten the twist with the wrench. Keep the cable red-warm and bury it in the flux over and over until it looks like it's been dipped in molton glass. Then push the heat up to yellow at the unfused end and start whacking it with the hammer. Use a fairly heavy hammer and let it do the work, (you just steer, gravity provides the force) say about two or three pound head. Keep reheating and refluxing and work your way down the length, tightening the twist as you go. Be patient, you can't hurry this stuff. Flux can be borax, but get the pure chemical, Borateem has a lot of soap in it. Try a welding supplier or a chemical supplier, look in the Yalu Pages.

Once you get the wire to turn to billet, you can push the metal into shape at red/orange heat and then grind or file to final profile. Get back to us when you get this far and we'll go into heat treatment.

Charly

Ronald Reil snipped-for-privacy@mindspring.com

Yes. I think that's a good analogy. The paper question is: Is forge welding a defining characteristic of being a blacksmith? And the paper answer is that it depends on the paper definition of the art. The practical answer, though, is that if forge welding is not known to the practicioner, it certainly should be.

One difference between plumbers' soldering and blacksmiths' forge welding is that for the plumber (lead worker) there were fully lead pipe systems that once required knowledge--not of soldering--but of "wiping" a joint with the gloved hand. These are no longer used, just replaced. Even lead-calked CI pipe (soil pipe) joints are seldom used. But for the blacksmith, it's somewhat different, because the ancient art is yet central to the practice. The fact that it's easier, much more cost efficient, to gas/electric weld, that these technologies have all but replaced forge welding, does not mean that those wanting to master the modern version of the ancient art would not consider forge welding essential to the skill set. And, as Tom posts, find it a practical aid in some tasks.

Frank Morrison

massive snippage...

My turn... do you HAVE to forge-weld to 'be a blacksmith'? No, but it helps. Smiths have pushed hot metal around for thousands of years. Moving metal is a basic skill, something you learn as an apprentice. Making two into one is an advanced skill, something you learn as a journeyman. Don't confuse grade school with high school or college.

You may all now revile me for my over-simplification.

Charly

Very clearly, and very well, stated.

Ron

Golden Age Forge

E-mail: snipped-for-privacy@reil1.net Boise, Idaho

Charly the Bastard wrote:

Smiths have pushed hot metal around for thousands of years. Moving metal is a basic skill, something you learn as an apprentice. Making two into one is an advanced skill, something you learn as a journeyman. Don't confuse grade school with high school or college.

Actually Twenty Mule Team Borax is 100% pure borax with no soap in it at all. It works great for flux, been using it for more than 20 years. Anhydrous borax is better however, as it gives quicker coverage because there is no "fluffing" stage. It just melts onto the metal directly.

Ron

Charly the Bastard wrote:

Yeah Ron, TMT borax is 100%, Borateem isn't, and Borateem is all that the local chain stores have on the shelves around here. There used to be TMT Borax, Boraxo, and Borateem, but the first two lost the marketing skirmish over the years, and 'teem is all that's left. I get mine in 100# bags from the chemical jobber.

I know it's a nit, but the devil is in the details with this stuff.

Charly