Elevator Cable Knife

"Bob", bravely hiding behind the cloak of anonymity, wrote:
[deletia in places]
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By Jove, I think you've got it!
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Forge welding has been intrinsic to blacksmithing since Saint Clement was an alter boy.
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A wise choice - doubting me would make you appear even more the fool.
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The thread was dead from the onset because your premise is invalid: Forge welding is a basic blacksmithing skill and no blacksmith worthy of the name would be unable to perform a skill basic to his trade.
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Pointing out your error does not entail any "determination" on my part, merely a rudimentary knowledge of the trade and your woeful lack of that same commodity.
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"We?" Who is "we?" Have your personal vermin elected you spokesman? Or, did you purposely misuse the first person plural in a puerile attempt to add weight to your words?
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As has been clearly evidenced by your attempt to defend an indefensible premise, rational thinking is not your long suit.
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I'd be surprised if you had, even if you managed to spell it correctly. I'm privileged to know quite a few blacksmiths, but I can't think of a single one who is unable to weld in the fire; on the other hand, you claim such skills are "not required." Perhaps you might benefit by joining your local, state, or regional blacksmithing organization and getting to know a few blacksmiths worthy of the name.
Perchance, are you one of those folks who calls himself a "blacksmith", but can't forge weld? If that's the case, most any blacksmith can probably have you forge welding in less than an hour. It's really no big deal - forge welding is an easy skill in which to attain proficiency and a necessary skill if one is to be called "blacksmith" by one's peers.

Children, please.
Picking at words is getting this nowhere.
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I've misinterpreted...
When Tom uses the word 'blacksmith' he means 'Master Blacksmith'
When Bob used the word 'blacksmith' he means 'a smiter of the black metal'
My opinion: If you call yourself a 'Master Blacksmith', you better be able to forge weld. If you just call yourself a 'blacksmith', you should be trying to learn to forge weld. If you say, "I do some blacksmithing now and again", it doesn't particularly matter if you can forge weld.
I've done it, but only a few times, I'm not good at it.
-- meta comments --
This would have ended long ago if either or both of you had made an effort to understand what the other was actually meaning and/or re-phrased your own statements.
When a student doesn't understand, do you just keep saying it the same way? No. You communicate, you re-phrase it, choose a different analogy, ask questions to find the confusion. Communication is a form of teaching where you teach the other person what your thought is. Reductio ad absurdum might win a debate, but it doesn't help with communication.
If you guys _want_ to mis-understand each other and be mad at each other, no one can stop you. But could y'all take it off-group?

massive snippage...
My turn... do you HAVE to forge-weld to 'be a blacksmith'? No, but it helps. Smiths have pushed hot metal around for thousands of years. Moving metal is a basic skill, something you learn as an apprentice. Making two into one is an advanced skill, something you learn as a journeyman. Don't confuse grade school with high school or college.
You may all now revile me for my over-simplification.
Charly

Very clearly, and very well, stated.
Ron
Golden Age Forge http://www.reil1.net/gallery.shtml E-mail: snipped-for-privacy@reil1.net Boise, Idaho
Charly the Bastard wrote:
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Smiths have pushed hot metal around for thousands of years. Moving metal is a basic skill, something you learn as an apprentice. Making two into one is an advanced skill, something you learn as a journeyman. Don't confuse grade school with high school or college.
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Do farriers ever need to weld ? -- Smert' spamionam

Andy Dingley wrote:
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Farriers need to weld in order to forge most types of a class of therapeutic/palliateive shoes called "bar shoes", as well as certain kinds of downward protuberances on horseshoes called "calks."
A kind of calk called a "toe grab" involves either jump welding or copper joinery. Many farriers routinely use copper for joinery in the fire.
All advanced certification test in farriery involve some sort of welding test; some involve both welding and joinery with copper or brass.

I don't kknow if Farriers need to forge weld or not, I have never done the job. However, I visited Mr. Stovalls web page and he does more than just Farrier work.
This unfortunate forge welding issue started from a comment I made about not all blacksmiths being able to forge weld. I can forge weld and do so almost every day making pattern welded steel (some say damascus) for knives.
Mr Stovall disagreed with my comment and defended his idea that they all must be able to forge weld. Although I understand his position, and defend his right to disagree, I can only believe the people that tell me they just never got the hang of it. Most people that I know do not lie about NOT being able to do something. I would venture to say that most people that lie claim they can do something they can't.
The modern day blacksmith that is alive today has always had access to welding equipment other than forge welding and the people I know had difficulty forge welding so they took advantage of modern technology. Had they spent more time trying to learn they probably would have picked it up but never bothered. Mr. Stovall admitted he uses welders daily and I agree that he probably would have to if he wanted to make any money doing his work since forge time equates to a lot of hours that using a welder can cut to minutes. The people I know just went there from the start.
Mr Stovall and I got carried away with the discussion because we both (I'll take a shot here) are set in our ways and will defend what we know forever. I would think that if Mr. Stovall were to meet these people and see some of the incredible work they have done with a hammer and anvil for the thirty plus years they have been making a living as blacksmiths, he would soften his point of view.
I have not responded to the other posts in an effort to avoid angering Mr. Stovall further. I am a good guy that likes to help people and I am sure he is the same. We just got off on the wrong foot.
Bob
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 03:56:03 +0000, Andy Dingley
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You will need more than your oxy-acet torch to complete that project.
When you weld cable together you first need to clean the dirt and grease out of it by bruning it out. The best way to do this is to heat the cable up to a good cherry red and dunking it into a bucket with two gallons water and three cups borax. Do this three times to clean the cable.
Then take the cable up to near welding heat and flux with borax. Then take the cable up to welding heat and then twist the cable, closing up any gaps and welding it together. Reflux and repeat until you have a solid piece of steel (billet).
Then forge into a knife of your design., then heat treat, temper, polish, etc...
I have information on my web site on how to make many of the tools you would need for this project.
As Ernie said, it is not an easy project. I know knifemakers and blacksmiths with a lot of experience that cannot forge weld. It is said that forge welding is more of an art than a science. You just kinda have to have the knack to do it.
If you plan to make one knife, you probably will not want to go through all of the work and expense to do it. If you want to get into it as a long term hobby, it might be worth starting.
I make knives out of cable and other various metals combined together and it really is quite an involved process but if you are really interested, I will assist as much as you need.
Check out the "Shop stuff" area of my web site and then let me know if you want any assistance.
www DOT warnerknives DOTcom
Bob
On 22 Dec 2003 16:42:12 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@aaronj.com (Stu) wrote:
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Thanks for the many (if not confusing) posts.
For a beginner I would need:
Cheapest easiest made/bought source of heat? ________________________
Cleaning agent borax? Type? Where to buy? _________________________
Hammer/anvil shapes and sizes?_______________________________
Safety equipment for hot sprays etc?_____________________
Are there any shaping dies to forge shape handle etc.?______________
Is there a method/tool to prevent unraveling? _____________________
Technique for heat treatment/annealing?___________________________
Anything that I missed? _______________________
May I telephone someone willing to share their experience?
Thanks in advance,
BoyntonStu
oso snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote in message (Stu) wrote:
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On 24-Dec-2003, snipped-for-privacy@aaronj.com (Stu) wrote:
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I tried pearlite, vermiculite, furnace cement, hard fire bricks, red brick....you get the picture. Ron Riel(sp) has burnner designs, as do I if you need them.
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I like boric acid.
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I use a 5inch dia. 4 foot long piece of bar stock that I hard faced. We dont need no stinking anvil! (but it would be nice)
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Better get some or you will yip a lot! I got kevlar sleeves from MSC.
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You wont need any dies till later maybe.
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It became obvious to hammer in the direction of the twist real quick.
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O Lord! I smell another spat! Heat till it is pumkin orange and plunge in oil. Bake in an old toaster oven at 500 F. This will be in the ballpark for a lot of steels.To get the utmost out of any steel you need to know the rockwell you want in the end, and follow the manufactures directions. The rockwell of the cable knives I have made checks on the low side, but they work well for me. Cable is not going to act like a block of O1. The forge is most likely going to be your firs hurdel. Cable welds at a lower heat than low carbon steel. I had to use Mapp gas to get up to temp un till I got better insulation. I'm in Newport News Va. if ya wanna bring me some beer, I'll give ya the 50 cent tour also. Les

On 22 Dec 2003 16:42:12 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@aaronj.com (Stu) wrote:
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Jim Hrisoulas' excellent books. "Complete Bladesmith" is a good start, "The Pattern Welded Blade" is excellent, albeit specialised. It goes into detail on cable knives in particular.
His other book "Master Bladesmith" is also good, but does carry some duplication of the others. One only for the really dedicated to the art. -- Klein bottle for rent. Apply within.

I have everything Jim wrote or filmed.
He frequents the forum that I do and he shares a lot of info.
Bob
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 03:56:02 +0000, Andy Dingley
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Stu wrote:
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Well, you might make a small one with a torch and a LOT of patience, but you'll go through a lot of gas. Got a rosebud tip? You'll need to get the cable up to bright yellow to start, and reheat when it goes the least bit orange. There's no such thing as too much flux. Wear protective clothing, no synthetics, plastic melts and sticks like napalm. The cable will try to unwind as you work it, keep twisting it tighter.(a small pipe wrench works quite well for this)
Take a cutting torch and melt one end of the cable into a fused lump, then heat it to about cherry and grab the fused end in a vise and tighten the twist with the wrench. Keep the cable red-warm and bury it in the flux over and over until it looks like it's been dipped in molton glass. Then push the heat up to yellow at the unfused end and start whacking it with the hammer. Use a fairly heavy hammer and let it do the work, (you just steer, gravity provides the force) say about two or three pound head. Keep reheating and refluxing and work your way down the length, tightening the twist as you go. Be patient, you can't hurry this stuff. Flux can be borax, but get the pure chemical, Borateem has a lot of soap in it. Try a welding supplier or a chemical supplier, look in the Yalu Pages.
Once you get the wire to turn to billet, you can push the metal into shape at red/orange heat and then grind or file to final profile. Get back to us when you get this far and we'll go into heat treatment.
Charly

Actually Twenty Mule Team Borax is 100% pure borax with no soap in it at all. It works great for flux, been using it for more than 20 years. Anhydrous borax is better however, as it gives quicker coverage because there is no "fluffing" stage. It just melts onto the metal directly.
Ron
Charly the Bastard wrote:
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Ron Reil wrote:
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Yeah Ron, TMT borax is 100%, Borateem isn't, and Borateem is all that the local chain stores have on the shelves around here. There used to be TMT Borax, Boraxo, and Borateem, but the first two lost the marketing skirmish over the years, and 'teem is all that's left. I get mine in 100# bags from the chemical jobber.
I know it's a nit, but the devil is in the details with this stuff.
Charly