CNC Training - For Real! (I hope)

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 13:17:11 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer


========Normally I don't bother to respond to this type of post, but the problem is that I am talking about a general solution that applies to most people.
As a counter example consider Tiger Woods. He makes an exceptional living, with high social status. The problem is that there is room for only a very few Tiger Woods in the PGA, and you must have exceptional talent and very considerable training to play at this level. If by some magic everyone could be play at this level, the economic premium will disappear.
There is a well known dilemma/problematique in industrial education called individual/case v generic/class, which has proven to be an intractable problem, in that for every individual/family that advances in socio-economic status because of education/training, another individual/family loses out, i.e. as presently constituted this is, in the aggregate, a "zero sum game," despite the enormous sums "invested." http://www.gdrc.org/sustdev/causes-poverty.html
If you are very good and very lucky it is possible to make a fortune as a rock star, but this is a poor career choice.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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On Jul 12, 4:12 pm, F. George McDuffee <gmcduf...@mcduffee- associates.us> wrote:> Normally I don't bother to respond to this type of post, but the

Tiger Woods is irrelevant to the FACT that there is going to continue to be a need for highly skilled CNC prototype / toolmaker kinds of machinists in this country as long as you're still breathing and most likely as long as I am. If this is something someone aspires to and they are willing to pay the price they will be able to make a living at it. The need for the kind of button pushers with limited skills that you think makes sense to create is indeed very questionable.

Also, totally irrelevant.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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wrote:

Put hard numbers on the first 18 months because if they aren't worth the $12.00 it's best for all involved if they move on to a job they are better suited. I would be very carefully how I presented the other rungs of the ladder so as to not give false impressions that this is where they will be or should be in X number of months/years.
Like Garlicdude I prefer self-paced training and when they are ready they should move on. Having said that however there should still be a minimum number of hours or days spent in various departments. This is manufacturing, the day to day operation is often repetitive and at times just plain boring but they are tasks that have to be performed so you don't need to load a shop full of ADD.

Spell it out, what you are doing for them and what they are doing for you. A great opportunity for the right person/s, especially for someone that can't afford to pursue higher education. A degree could cost a few hundred thousand over a few years or they can work with you and earn while they learn. At the end they would be earning comparable wage or more than entry level college grad. That is a huge swing with no incurred debt or student loans to pay off after they graduate.
If it is a certified apprenticeship program the apprentice will work minimum eight hours a day paid and go to school four hours, two or three times a week unpaid. Doubt you can do same if it is on your property and not a formal program, not sure how it will apply if you give them homework, check local labor laws. But your costs, risk can be limited and spread out over time.
Your agreement should have a 30-90 day trial period if local law allows it. Spend a day of introduction, orientation and safety for their first assignment before letting them loose.
First few weeks of janitorial duties may be six or seven hours a day work and class for the remainder of eight hour shift. First classes Safety, proper use and care of tools, and specific training for what ever department/duties they move to next.

He did approve the project so he must believe there is something positive to it.

I have seen management inflate the cost of training, what you can do to help him is nip it in the bud, give him the numbers when you finalize the plan, don't let him/them guess they will always be too high.
Paying a trainee $9.00 hour does not mean it costs $360.00 week for training + materials + equipment + your salary.
If trainee makes $9.00 hour to start it isn't costing $360.00 a week to train. They are working for the company and it is benefiting whether they are moping floors or cleaning sump tanks it's jobs that have to be performed.
If classroom instruction is 5 hours a week then you can say it cost $45.00 but not if they are making $9.00 hour and you are paying others $12.00 hour for the same job. The disparity in pay IS paying for the training and may actually equal ZERO cost to the company. You would have to track some measurable's to verify real costs of training vs. benefits to the company.
Operating a machine yes they will take a little more supervision but that is why there is a disparity in pay between a trainee and experienced operator. Repairman's helper, Machinists helper, Plant Maintenance helper same thing.
I assume you are on salary, you get paid to do a job no matter how many hours a day or days in the week it takes you to get your job done. That makes you (IMO) a fixed cost, company overhead so to speak so your salary should not be part of the equation. Also I believe you are the type person who for every hour you spend at work on this project you spent 5X that amount on your "off" hours.

I am wondering if there are not current employees that may want into your program. That's the only real snag I see that hasn't been touched on so far. Excluding current employees and not offering them a chance could cause some internal resentment and festering issues over time.
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
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good point.
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wrote:

Which is a whole lot more than Jon Banquer, cadcam poseur and idiot, will be making when Quallcom.com wakes up (not just to your incompetence, but to all their missing shit, as well) and cans Jon Banquer's thieving pathological and useless ass.
'course, as per 0:41 and 3:20 in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o
(29,685,000 hits, yo), if you grow some knobs and tuck your flabby ass in some tight jeans, you might be able to supplement your soon-to-be minimal income. Some quality check-kiting jail time will no doubt give you some sexy moves.
'course, yer already lying about your current wage, as you lie about everything else.
--

Mr. PV'd

Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
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As usual Kirk, well thought out and characteristically verbose. I have been putting together in house apprenticeship programs for quite a few of my customers as part of my business. The key is finding the right people. You may have to go through a few thousand kids to get one that is worth a damn. On the other side of that is you may have to go through a few thousand machinists to find the ones that can teach. Once you have put the two together running the shop is an all day lesson of learning and teaching. The common thread I find in both instructors and students is a background in music or sports. The discipline of either one transcends well to machining. One of the most talented crews I have been a part of training is a soccer team. The apprentice leadman and all the other apprentices have soccer scholarships and have at least 2 years of college paid for by soccer. They are quick learners and some have changed their career path to manufacturing related studies. More importantly they already understand how to function as a team. Continuous improvement isn't a negative concept that destroys their self esteem. Being athletes they understand in order to improve you need to eliminate your weak points. Any time there is an opening the leadman recruits a new team member. He is finding results on the field mean results in the shop. It is truly satisfying to see a meritocracy in action.
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Bill wrote:

Oh!!! Music and sports! You've mentioned that before (or somebody has) and it's perfect! Thank you for that. I'm logging off right now to add a couple new questions to my interview notes, and a couple extra things to look for on resumes and transcripts.
KG
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Not any points that lying pieces of "s" like Kirk, Joe788, Tom Brewer, and "machining expert" P.V. ( Kriss Hogg) can grasp. As it stands, without a complete overhaul, Captain Kirk's program will fail. So be it as he's an "a" hole who has had plenty of failure in his life and this will be yet another one of his many failures.
If Kirk had a clue he'd do something more productive with his time like figure out how to offer a moderately priced optical measuring system that lets you quickly and easily dial in equal length cutting lips on a Darex M5 without having to waste so much time with trail and error and without having to remove the drill from the chuck.. The same need exists for most semi portable cutter grinder type tools.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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Funny to see JB complaining about other people having failures ...
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Proctologically Violated wrote:

<laughing>
I don't know what that means, exactly; but I hope it's good.
KG
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ass = ear. :) :)
--

Mr. PV'd

Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
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P.V. (Kriss Hogg) wouldn't know because he's not a machinist and he's proven he's not much of a problem solver.
Take a specific like being obsessed with attention to detail... that would be a draw back not an asset in some professions.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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jon_banquer wrote:

I shouldn't waste my time, but...
The drill sharpening machine didn't fail. It worked superbly. The oldest one is now 10 years old, and its owner STILL hasn't found anything that will replace it, or the other four that make up most of his entire operation. The business didn't fail, either. I never wanted to be a business person. I've done my share of sales, and management, and accounting, and lawyers and corporate meetings and all the rest, and it's just not my thing. I'm a hands-on guy, and I like working on machines, not computers or paper. I started my business just because it was the only way to take on some real-world projects I wanted to do. That lasted 11 years. And when I was done, I either had to make it a real business, including all the things that don't turn me on, or put my money in the bank and find some other way to keep doing what I love. I found a job, and it's worked for me. I don't have to send quotations, or live on the phone, or try to lie my way past the secretary just for a chance to try convincing the owner of a company to let me help him. I show up every morning and walk right in the door. I get to play all day with somebody else's expensive toys. And then I go home tired and dirty and happy. And they pay me every two weeks, right on time. I don't call that failure. Life is fine.

I've never considered myself flag-wrapped. I have no idea why you think that. You don't, either.

I'm going to teach them that it's results that matter. Allen wrenches for some tasks, crescent wrenches for others. We have AutoCAD, SolidWorks, MasterCAM, and more. They'll learn every tool I can teach them, and I'll test them by looking at the quality and production rates and profits that result from the tools and fixtures and gauges they design. I don't give a damn about the brand name on the software.

I guess you'd have to ask my students - several hundred people over the years that I've taught to program, set up, operate, and maintain CNC machine tools. As far as I know, every one of them has made a living doing the exact things I taught them. Most have moved on to do a lot more than that, including some that I first met decades ago, who now own and operate a lot of CNC machinery. In my book, that might mean that they got a good start.

You need to learn how to read, Jon. I'm not interested in $9 an hour or $12 an hour people. And I'm not going to hire people who want those kinds of wages. I'm looking for people who can earn $80,000 or $100,000 or more per year. I just need to start them someplace, and get them to the point where they have some real and valuable skills.
And, despite what you seem to believe, the only way to get from the bottom of the ladder to the top is to learn. Not bitch. Not pretend to know. But learn. And that takes a long time.
KG
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wrote:

Excellent response, of course. But you could have just as well have shortened it to:
JB, SMD.
--

Mr. PV'd

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You love to waste time. It's one of the few things you're truly good at.

It failed as a business venture because you can't make a decent living selling it to others.

You're little more than a blow hard.

You can't teach what you don't know and you have proven you're totally incapable of understanding concepts like top down design. I doubt you could teach them much about Mastercam either.

I don't have to ask anyone. Many of your ideas and concepts are "s" and don't hold up even under mild scrutiny.

I have no doubt that my reading skills far outpace yours. I'm also much better at getting to the point where as you go on and on and on never really saying very much of intelligence.

So you say but your moronic ideas and program show this is exactly what you want and what you will get.

They best way is with a good program and an excellent teacher. Your program sucks and so do you.

In your case forever wouldn't be long enough.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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Just in case it helps...
I'm serious and passionate about the topic here, and I'm really hoping some of the more thoughtful members of the group can help me. I've answered some of JB's "questions" in another post; but I'd really, REALLY like it if this thread didn't get hijacked by Jon, or any of the other head-cases in the group.
So let's leave them out this time. Let's ignore them and deal with the topic, which I'm hoping is interesting and thought-provoking enough all by itself that we can enjoy it and get our teeth into it without letting it decay into madness like so many other threads do.
That said, I'm truly interested in input from any source. Even those who normally prefer to throw shit and slime up the group may have valuable thoughts to offer. I plan to read carefully, and to think about any idea that deserves it.
Thanks!
KG
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Then I think you need to study abnormal psychology and sociology. No foolin.... It might give you some clues as to how to deal with fundamentally toxic media programming (not TV programming, altho that is certainly a part, but rather of programming our brains), and very very powerful programming at that.
Or how to filter out those who are/are not fundamentally damaged.
I believe that social darwinism is being semi-deliberately fostered -- only the *fundamentally* well-adjusted, or the truly predatory, will survive in any productive way.
There is absolutely no intent on elevating our children, giving them a chance. All that bullshit is lipservice.
We have 6 billion effing people on this planet, with *maybe* 60,000,000 having usable (read: unscrambled) brains. If that ratio is correct, you will have "success" with *maybe* 1 out of 100. Which is about what the direct-marketing/cold calling response rate is, if there is any connection.
I think there is some wisdom to your method: you will at least be filtering out those with some grit/determination. Then, you hope for brains.
The big Q is, how to "inspire" people with work, when work is essentially viewed by the media as the consolation prize for losers? It's a bad bad bad psycho/social situation, with kids as the miner's birds.
--

Mr. PV'd

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Proctologically Violated wrote:

Sadly, I can't argue with a single word. But I also can't just bitch about it and do nothing. So I'm going to try, even if it's just a few kids in a small program. Someone once said "It's a fool who does nothing because he thinks he can do only a little."
KG
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It's a fool who comes up with a program like this and runs with it rather than creating a program that will work.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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jon_banquer wrote:

And just what are you doing to improve the future of the younger generation?
All I've seen from you is condemning other people or products because they don't go along with your view of how things should be.
I don't like certain brands of cars, electronics, etc., but the ones I don't care for must still work for the people who like them, or they wouldn't still be in business.
Don't condemn someone who's trying to improve the future because you don't agree with the way he is doing it. At least he's doing something.
--
Steve Walker
snipped-for-privacy@verizonwallet.com (remove wallet to reply)
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