CNC Training - For Real! (I hope)

Thanks, Richard. Good thoughts.

Teaching safety won't be a problem. I'm a fanatic about it. Anybody who gets hurt working for me had better be dead, 'cause I'm gonna kill 'em when I find out about it.

Using a school's machines to teach basics is a good idea. As I explained in another post, we don't have a toolroom or any basic, manual equipment. Maybe I can plan a co-op program with one of the local schools - something that would dovetail closely with what's happening on the job. An ideal version of that might be: "Take this turning tool to school with you tonight. Try it on the lathe there, and experiment with feeds and speeds, and how to break the chips and get a good finish. Then bring it back to work tomorrow and we'll put it in the Integrex and see/use what you've learned."

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that I need to find some way to do this. It's hard to learn metalcutting when everything happens behind the guards, obscured by the splashing coolant. And when modern machines deliver a finished part at the end of every cycle, how do you get the hang of drilling properly before reaming, or of rough and finish passes?

Once I have a decent group of kids to teach, some of the teaching will be harder than I like.

Additional thoughts or suggestions?

KG

Reply to
Kirk Gordon
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I was wondering about the pay rate to. But I don't know much about the location and what it takes to live. If you start at minimum wage then the only people who are likely to apply are those who still live at home. Because they won't be able to rent an apartment or buy tools and pay for any necessary classes. Here where I live you need to make $12. an hour or when you apply for an apartment they will turn you down. They say you don't make enough money to live here. A lot of kids moving out on their own have this problem. I think the monthly rent starts at about $900 a month here. No one will stay in a poverty job for very long, before they say it isn't worth it. Especially if they need a second job to buy gas and food. When I did the apprentice thing if I remember correctly starting rate was

60% of machinist rate. Which was a lot better than minimum wage. You have to remember that these people are starting out and most don't have anything. So they will need safety shoes and work clothes. When I started all I had was a car. I guess I am saying that I don't think minimum wage is a good starting point. Especially if a janitors wage in your shop pays more money. Remember you're trying to attract good people who will stay and grow the company.

Richard W.

Reply to
Richard W.

As I explained in another post, top performers in this shop earn between $80K and $100K per year. The kids starting out at the bottom of the ladder will know that. It's part of what I'm offering.

Living expenses here in SE Pennsylvania are pretty good, and the wages we pay would be hard to come by in other industries, given similar skills and experience.

Janitors wages ARE the starting wages for this program. The janitors who make more aren't janitors anymore. They've learned something and moved up the ladder. The kids in my program will do the same.

60% of machinists wages to start? That can't work. It'd mean $18.00 or $19.00 for somebody right off the street. No way to justify that. And no room to give raises for a long, long time, if we want kids to grow. So we start them modest. We're LOOKING for kids living at home, who can afford to invest some time. But when they've made some investment, we will too, and wages will grow as skill does.

KG

Reply to
Kirk Gordon

Keep thinking about Kirk's program. You will realize how badly flawed it is.

Young people aren't stupid. Kirk is proposing a program where he sells high tech and yet he pays as low tech as it gets. All you will ever get is the wrong type of applicant. Kirk simply doesn't have the brains to pull this off and his program shows that. It's a rehashed B.S. program that has been tried and has failed and deservedly so. It's also obvious to any applicant with a clue and who can think that this program starts off by showing that they=92re not to be trusted which is beyond stupid but typical of how an "a" hole, jerk like Kirk thinks.

We live in a nothing is permanent world where change happens faster than most people can handle. You have to tailor a program a to fit this reality, make it appealing and make it believable.

Keep thinking about it. You will realize it's far more than the pay rate that stinks about Kirk's lousy program.

The "a" hole hasn't asked so I fail to see the point of doing Kirk's job for him by laying out a program that deals with a rapidly changing world where nothing is permanent and will be accepted by those in the program as one that fits the reality they see in today's world.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

Reply to
jon_banquer

Often their parents will want them to leave once they start working. That's what my dad did.

Richard W.

Reply to
Richard W.

Jon, how many machine shop employees have you hired in your life time?

*Being* hired and fired dozens of times is quite a bit different than actually selecting and hiring people.
Reply to
Joe788

========= Normally I don't bother to respond to this type of post, but the problem is that I am talking about a general solution that applies to most people.

As a counter example consider Tiger Woods. He makes an exceptional living, with high social status. The problem is that there is room for only a very few Tiger Woods in the PGA, and you must have exceptional talent and very considerable training to play at this level. If by some magic everyone could be play at this level, the economic premium will disappear.

There is a well known dilemma/problematique in industrial education called individual/case v generic/class, which has proven to be an intractable problem, in that for every individual/family that advances in socio-economic status because of education/training, another individual/family loses out, i.e. as presently constituted this is, in the aggregate, a "zero sum game," despite the enormous sums "invested."

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If you are very good and very lucky it is possible to make a fortune as a rock star, but this is a poor career choice.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]

------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

Tiger Woods is irrelevant to the FACT that there is going to continue to be a need for highly skilled CNC prototype / toolmaker kinds of machinists in this country as long as you're still breathing and most likely as long as I am. If this is something someone aspires to and they are willing to pay the price they will be able to make a living at it. The need for the kind of button pushers with limited skills that you think makes sense to create is indeed very questionable.

Also, totally irrelevant.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

Reply to
jon_banquer

========== I not only wish you luck, but applaud your efforts and cheer them [and you] on, but always remember "never teach a pig how to sing

-- it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

IMNSHO the inhale-exhale staffing paradigm shift in US employment has proven to be a sure recipe for disaster in anything but the shortest term. For one thing it means, as you have discovered, that the company is always on the leading edge [the expensive section] of the learning curve, not only in terms of instruction, but also spoiled materials and wrecked machines.

While one of the symptoms, albeit a major one, of the socio-economic changes of the last 20 years is the lack of adequate numbers of suitably trained and motivated personnel in increasing numbers of careers/occupations, it is just that, a symptom and not "the," or even "a," cause.

This extends to even the retail stores, for example try to find a clerk that knows anything about hardware or paint. This is generally not obstinacy or wilful ignorance on the clerk's part, but simply the realization that next week they will be selling shoes or garden supplies, possibly at another store, or even at another chain.

While training and apprentice type programs have been around forever, as indicated in my prior posts the socio-cultural conditions and candidates has changed. Thus, while an outline of your training program will be helpful, continuous modification will be necessary. An entire methodology called "participatory action research" has been developed to deal with this type of situation, where "something must be done," but large amounts of the required data/environmental information are not available at the start, but will have to be discovered/developed as work progresses. See

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As to your observation:

Pretty simple when you consider that you don't really need a micrometer, but a digital drop indicator [Marposs?] with a suitable gage, and setting master. If you are not doing so, SPC/charting can be of help to detect out of control situations such as unexpected tool wear or material variations.

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To be sure, when work simplification is pushed to this level, you don't really have CNC machinists, but rather bar pushers, set-up people, etc.

One approach you might consider is the formation of small teams [c. 5 people], with your trainees as junior members. Your suggestion to encourage the trainees to subscribe to the free machining magazines and web sites appears to be a good idea. Another helpful idea may be to provide tool boxes and tools at company cost, with X amount forgiven for every month with the company. The students won't need the full compliment of machinists tools to start, but can accumulate as needed. There are several other small items that can be helpful such as blue aprons for the appetencies, and white aprons for the master machinists in the groups.

Again, good luck and let the group know how you make out.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]

------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

========== This is an increasingly serious problem in not only manufacturing, but most other areas. It is very difficult to even approach the paper ROI of a highly leveraged synthetic collateralized debt obligation or other derivative with any physical investment. The MBAs with their "portfolio analysis" and CAPM [Capital Asset Pricing Model] have hijacked all the money in the world.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]

------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Reply to
F. George McDuffee

I waste lazy idiots like you and correct your often drunken b.s.

How does it feel?

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

Reply to
jon_banquer

I'll definitely do that. Thanks again for your thoughts and suggestions.

KG

Reply to
Kirk Gordon

I waste lazy idiots like you and correct your often drunken b.s.

How does it feel?

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

I expected that responce.

Let me help you out... If you asked me that question I would say I program electrodes and steel components for molds using ugnx5. Soon I will be doing moldbases and hsm.

See, thats how you answer a question.

So, lets try this again, WTF do you do where you work? What specifically is your job description?

Reply to
vinny

Get kids that are into autoracing.. They need the money for their racecar and if they are running a car they will be mechanically inclined. Just make sure they don't always come in last at the races. :)

Pennsylvania has some very good co-opt training programs for vets. coming out of the sevice as well as high school graduates.

John

Reply to
john

My mom concreted my room. And I was working only part time.

Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®

At least she did it while you were out?

Reply to
J. Nielsen

Dunno' if PA has a similar program as NY, but both employees and employers (via tax incentives) benefit from NYS Apprenticeship programs.

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My employer almost always has at least one apprentice serving a NYS Mold Maker apprenticeship and my son is doing the same at another shop.

May be worth considering registering your program if PA has such an animal.

And best of luck finding motivated kids these days. Around here about 1 out of 10 is worth keeping.

Reply to
Black Dragon

Funny to see JB complaining about other people having failures ...

Reply to
Jessica Wabbit

You're being generous.

I had to fire my oldest boy (who now does darned fine hanging sheet rock), the youngest was smart enough to stay the hell away from machine shops.

I dont understand what the big deal is.

My first job in a machine shop was mopping the head. The boss says, as he hands me the mop, "Make sure you get around the toilet real good, you know how us guys always miss." He did that to every new hire, no matter how experienced. He figured if youre too good to swab the head, youre too good to work here. After that it was a rotating duty. We all got to swab the head. He hired kids to work after school for cleaning out chip pans and sweeping floors and after they graduated, he would start them out like he did me. And those 6" Starett scales? I never knew they were used for anything but cracking you on the skull, with the thin edge, for a couple years.

Then I got taught how to grind drills (with the Starett scale and drill grinder gage) and promoted to the cut-off saw. After mastering the saw, I got promoted to deburring and blending. Then it was off to the hog mill, which was a hammered old Cincinnati with a vertical head and an ancient vise I have never seen before or since, and a 4" shell mill that never got changed, only inserts.

But the real joy came as I was learning the shaper! Clapper just doesnt have the same meaning to me as it does to most others...

After the shaper it was off and running to the Lodge & Shipley turret lathe!

I knew I had made it when they put me on the Hardinge chucker with the GE tape reader and the roll switches for offsets.

Then it was off to school! A Sclumberge workstation with APT and COMPACT, used 2-10", 2-5.25" floppies and took 1/2 hour to boot (I think it was a Z80 with 8kb of RAM). We had a time share account with a mainframe at Berzerkly that we could only use at night.

DPNT1 X0.Y0. DPNT2 X1.25 Y0. DLN1 PNT1 PNT2

etc.

Then we got to use EZCAM to program the new BOSS8 R2E3 to cut EDM electrodes!

Dust collectors or masks, mwheh.

Then one day the clouds broke, the shaft of light hit the ground as the angels sang, and the boss bought a Hurco with a 10 station tool changer.

Magic I tell ya.

Reply to
Scott

I've heard that; but haven't found any sources or information. Someone fresh out of the military could work. Any clue where I'd start looking for them?

KG

Reply to
Kirk Gordon

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