CNC Training - For Real! (I hope)



We have a very successful 23 year old who works in our shop. He's a real machinist and very talented. The company I work for is almost always listed in the top 10 companies in the U.S. to work for.
The question really should be what is your company doing about the situation? You know who I work for but you refuse to say who you work for. What are you ashamed of / afraid of?

I've got an opinion. I express it. Here's another opinion for you... CAMWorks is crap and isn't developed the way it should be developed.

It's a b.s. program that is very poorly thought out and I'm calling Kirk on it. Deal with it.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I waste lazy idiots like you and correct your often drunken b.s.
How does it feel?
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I waste lazy idiots like you and correct your often drunken b.s.
How does it feel?
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
I expected that responce.
Let me help you out... If you asked me that question I would say I program electrodes and steel components for molds using ugnx5. Soon I will be doing moldbases and hsm.
See, thats how you answer a question.
So, lets try this again, WTF do you do where you work? What specifically is your job description?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

What your serious about is getting idiots to agree with you so when your program goes down in a heap of flames and lost money you can say others thought this was a good program as well. "F" you Kirk, that's not going to happen.

The topic is your program sucks. You now complain that this thread will decay into "madness". Your idiot program *is* madness. When there are good threads.... like the one I started on drill sharpeners you are silent because you're such a self serving, self centered, selfish, flag waving piece of "s".

Your typical lip service bullshit.

... And as per Captain Kirk usual not do a damn thing to change this poorly though out piece of "s" program.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnk7lh9M3o

29,685,000 hits, yo.
A snippet at the very beginning, much more at 0:44 -- really does look like jb in a tizzy over cadcam he don't unnerstand, eh? Also, 3:20 -- jb being chased, assaulted at a mastercam/SW training session? Really, quite a likeness, bald spot and all.
Hormone therapy would explain jb's intermittent snits, near-meltdowns, and general BizarroLand behavior, logic.
I guess, from rehab pov, all these muthafuckas could go into the bar/lounge/stripper/entertainment biz, eh?
--

Mr. PV'd

Mae West (yer fav CongressShill) to the Gangster (yer fav Lobbyist):
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Opps, sorry, I didn't see this till after I responded to Jon.
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Jul 12, 11:13am, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

You're just a tool / fool Brewer and I so enjoy using an idiot / liar like you.
It's just so easy to do. ;>)
ROTFLMFAO
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Kirk Gordon wrote:

Couple of things, but they are related. I've never trained a machininst or anyone else. I've probably mentored a hundred kids or more. Having that perspective and letting the kids know that is how you look at this is important. This part of the trade is the people part, not the technical side. You'll never really quantify it.
I also used a two interview process. The first was to let me decide what I wanted to do with an applicant. The second, if there was one, was to tour the shop talking to the guys and let them know just how exceptional the group they were being invited to join was and that I'd decided that the applicant was worth the investment we were all going to make. I'd also tell them that they needed to be assigned work in the shop that both needed doing and that would basically let them hang around while they learned how not to kill themselves or others. They would move ahead when I, or any of the others, thought the time was right. Thenm, you just have to watch and interact with them. Their behavior will let you know when the time is right, either to move up or on. LOL
Finally, nearly everyone was a referal. Some from existing employees, others from vendors or customers.That referal, in fact, is really the first step in the interview process. The best I ever had were High School juniors and seniors who had been brought in by a parent who worked with me.
I never ran an ad for an apprentice mold maker and there was usually a least one or two that were waiting for a slot.
In the end, the only thing that matters ( beyond the necessary raw ability ) is the willingness of all of the parties to invest in the future. That, and the respect for that investment - on both sides of the deal.
--
John R. Carroll



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
John R. Carroll wrote:

Amen! I hope I'm up to that part of the challenge.
KG
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
vinny wrote:

Interesting perspective. I've been in this business 38 years. I've never been laid off, and never worked for a company that ever laid off anybody. The folks who've picked "the honeywell type of shop" are filling up the unemployment lines, right now. I"m hoping that serves as a lesson, and perhaps a motivator, to the next generation of kids that I'm trying to reach.
KG
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Kirk Gordon wrote:

Get kids that are into autoracing.. They need the money for their racecar and if they are running a car they will be mechanically inclined. Just make sure they don't always come in last at the races. :)
Pennsylvania has some very good co-opt training programs for vets. coming out of the sevice as well as high school graduates.
John
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
john wrote:

I've heard that; but haven't found any sources or information. Someone fresh out of the military could work. Any clue where I'd start looking for them?
KG
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Unemployment department, first thing someone coming out of the military would/should do is file unemployment.
Check with local VFW or recruiters, someone may be able to point you in the right direction.
For formal programs under GI Bill:
http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/search_programs.htm
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Kirk,
Here is a starter for you.
http://www.paworkforce.state.pa.us/paworkforce/site/default.asp
Here is the other end of the pipeline of good people looking for good jobs.
http://www.dli.state.pa.us/landi/taxonomy/taxonomy.asp?DLN 3&landiPNavCtr=%7C900%7C
With the shrinking job market I can't understand why you are having such a problem finding good employees. I think you are trying to create every employee in your image.and in the long run you are letting a number of potentially good employees get away from you.. Many of your job requirments are bs as with a lot of big corporations. As long as I think the employee is able to do one job and make the company money I would hire him or her. I would not try to cram a bunch of useless math and other struff on them but make them want to advance on their own effort.
As far as age, if you limit you ages for hiring you also limit your source of good talent. I have one person working who is 69 years old. He has work habits better than most people and is an asset to my company. I have a couple of other people I know getting ready to retire at some other companys and want to work part time for me when they retire. They have the training, experience and good work ethics that will make the company money, and isnt that the object of hiring someone.
I sense a negative attitude that all young people are selfserving juviniles, yes a lot of them are but there are gems out there that you have to find without discouraging them before they take an interest in the machining industry. If you want someone to clean the toilets or the floor, advertise for a janitor. If I were put in that situation I would clean your crap once and then tell you from then on to do it yourself but then that is why I have always had my own company. Money is not the major motivation for many people, enjoyment of work is a big factor; sense of accomplishment in what they are doing.
By the way, your salary offerings are not any better than most bigger companys in our area, which is an hour north of you and blessed with a lot less expensive cost of living.
good luck,
John
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
John wrote: > > Kirk, > > Here is a starter for you. > > > http://www.paworkforce.state.pa.us/paworkforce/site/default.asp > > > > Here is the other end of the pipeline of good people looking for good > jobs. > > > http://www.dli.state.pa.us/landi/taxonomy/taxonomy.asp?DLN 3&landiP- > NavCtr=%7C900%7C > > > > > With the shrinking job market I can't understand why you are having > such a problem finding good employees. I think you are trying to > create every employee in your image.and in the long run you are > letting a number of potentially good employees get away from you.. > Many of your job requirments are bs as with a lot of big > corporations. As long as I think the employee is able to do one job > and make the company money I would hire him or her. I would not try > to cram a bunch of useless math and other struff on them but make > them want to advance on their own effort. > > As far as age, if you limit you ages for hiring you also limit your > source of good talent. I have one person working who is 69 years old. > He has work habits better than most people and is an asset to my > company. I have a couple of other people I know getting ready to > retire at some other companys and want to work part time for me when > they retire. They have the training, experience and good work > ethics that will make the company money, and isnt that the object of > hiring someone. > > > I sense a negative attitude that all young people are selfserving > juviniles, yes a lot of them are but there are gems out there that > you have to find without discouraging them before they take an > interest in the machining industry. If you want someone to clean the > toilets or the floor, advertise for a janitor. If I were put in that > situation I would clean your crap once and then tell you from then on > to do it yourself but then that is why I have always had my own > company. Money is not the major motivation for many people, > enjoyment of work is a big factor; sense of accomplishment in what > they are doing. > > By the way, your salary offerings are not any better than most bigger > companys in our area, which is an hour north of you and blessed with > a lot less expensive cost of living. > > good luck,
Thanks for the links, John. I'll check them out tomorrow morning first thing. And thanks too for your thoughts. You're wrong about the negative attitude, though. If I felt that way, I'd never have started this. I LIKE teaching. And I love to see kids learning and growing, and experiening the things that turned me on when it was all new and mysterious to me. But I want to do this right, not just have fun at it.
Please understand that this program isn't all we do in terms of hiring. We run ads constantly on Careerbuilder, Monster, and all the other major job sites, looking for experienced programmers, operators, setup people, QC, and more. Look at the "careers" section of http://www.fitzengineers.com , just for a sampling. And every headhunter on Earth knows he'll get an instant commission if finds us someone, rather than having to push and sell candidates like he'd do with companies that are slow right now, or being conservative. We even pay serious bounties to existing employees for referrals that work out.
And we certainly don't discriminate about age, or try to find superheroes when all we need are good skills. In the past year, we've hired a dozen (literally) people, ages probably from 25 to 50, who had good looking resume's, and who said they could do the job. Set up a Mazak Multiplex with a pre-existing program and tooling sheet for a repeat job. Operate a Star CNC Swiss type that's already making good parts. Step through a new program that's mostly ready to run, and tweak it to make five parts for FAI. Change inserts or reamers when they get dull, and adjust them to get good parts. Load bar feeders and keep the chip baskets clean. Check parts often enough so the machine's aren't running for an hour with a broken tap or an oversized groove. Seriously, that's all we're asking for.
We had one guy, maybe 40 years old, with boatloads of experience on a Multiplex. Gave him a test, checked his references, and all. We put him on one machine, day shift, so there's no scrambling or distractions, and lots of people around to answer questions, or help if he needed something. In a month, he crashed turrets into both spindles, mashed one of the tool eyes, spent boatloads of money on fried tools, and didn't make enough real production to pay for the coffee he drank, let alone wages and benefits. Had one similar on the Star machines maybe a year ago. Gave him one machine he said he knew, and a job that he said he'd done before at another company. It was maybe a 10 hour setup. He spent four days, crashed the machine so bad I had to do a complete alignment, and never did make a part that even looked right to the naked eye. We hired someone in his 30's two weeks ago. Lots of machining experience; but never worked on a Mazak Integrex or a Matrix control. So we tried him out for a week, decided he might be worth some risk, and sent him to Mazak school for this week at our expense. The jury's still out on him; but we're trying. We really are.
With so little luck, and so many people who just aren't as good as they think, we've decided to grow our own skill because we have to. The company is passing up work, and sometimes struggling to do what we already have, just because we can't find people.
The training program isn't designed to make kids into little programmable robots. But I'm convinced that that HAVE to spend time on fundamentals before they can learn the good stuff. You learned to count before you learned to do arithmetic. And you had to be good at arithmetic before algebra or trig could possibly make any sense. We're applying the same logic to machining. I'm not going to hope that someone knows something. I'm going to make sure. If you need to know ten things in order to perform a certain job, and you already know five of them, I'm going to teach you all ten anyway. Not because I want to bore you or hold you back; but because I don't know WHICH things you're missing, and you might not either. I can risk boring you a bit with things you don't need, or I can risk letting you do something you're not fully prepared for, and watch you crash and burn. A little bit of boredom is way better than learning things the hard way. NOTHING will break a person's spirit as quickly as that kind of reality check.
Obviously, we'll move people along as quickly as we can. The sooner they can fill our needs, the better it is for the company, our customers, our trainees, and everybody else you can think of. Holding back has NO benefits. But going too fast, or skipping things, will waste the students' time a lot worse than a bit of extra careful training.
I won't do it perfectly; but somehow, I'm going to do it and make it work.
KG
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

If you are running under ISO system every operation should have a detailed instruction on how to complete the operation, in process inspection of the part and completion inspection procedure. Resumes are fairy tales in most instances. Job history and how often and why an applicant changed jobs is more important in my opinion. I had one applicant that had a fantastic resume. I asked him what cnc controls he ran.... he didn't know. You would think the big name on the front of the control would be engrained in his brain. How the applicant fills out the application for employment is more important to me than what he puts on it. In effect it is his first work in process and how he handles it indicates to a great extent how he would handle work in the shop.

To paraphrase someone before me. A good leader can take average people and make a winning team out of them , A bad leader can take the best team and lose the game.

I would recommend having the trainee learn one thing well. run one machine with the proper supervision until he can be let go on that machine. Let him get the confidence on that machine;. Teach him about the machine, how to take care of it, how to check the alignment and reset it if it goes out. The only way you can be sure he knows about that machine is if he has been trained on it. It doesn't take long to know if he is worth spending time on.
Just a thought, I was working in a plant that was closing and they had hired some temp workers to do a job. They made a good imprression on me for several reasons. The did the jobs they were assigned very efficiently, they were polite, and they were neat. You might get in touch with one of the temp employment agencys for workers. A .lot of good people use temp agencys to find good jobs. This also goes for employers too. Hire a temp and if you like his work make him an offer of a perminent position.

John
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Cliff wrote:

Not long, I hope. But I can learn something about a person by assigning toilet cleaning, at least for a little while. I often tell people that if you clean the toilet well and quickly, then I'll be able to give you other things to do that are more interesting and valuable. But if you're too lazy to clean a toilet, or you think it's beneath you, or whatever, then how can I move you up to something that might actually matter if you get it wrong?
KG
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I was wondering about the pay rate to. But I don't know much about the location and what it takes to live. If you start at minimum wage then the only people who are likely to apply are those who still live at home. Because they won't be able to rent an apartment or buy tools and pay for any necessary classes. Here where I live you need to make $12. an hour or when you apply for an apartment they will turn you down. They say you don't make enough money to live here. A lot of kids moving out on their own have this problem. I think the monthly rent starts at about $900 a month here. No one will stay in a poverty job for very long, before they say it isn't worth it. Especially if they need a second job to buy gas and food. When I did the apprentice thing if I remember correctly starting rate was 60% of machinist rate. Which was a lot better than minimum wage. You have to remember that these people are starting out and most don't have anything. So they will need safety shoes and work clothes. When I started all I had was a car. I guess I am saying that I don't think minimum wage is a good starting point. Especially if a janitors wage in your shop pays more money. Remember you're trying to attract good people who will stay and grow the company.
Richard W.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Richard W. wrote:

As I explained in another post, top performers in this shop earn between $80K and $100K per year. The kids starting out at the bottom of the ladder will know that. It's part of what I'm offering.
Living expenses here in SE Pennsylvania are pretty good, and the wages we pay would be hard to come by in other industries, given similar skills and experience.
Janitors wages ARE the starting wages for this program. The janitors who make more aren't janitors anymore. They've learned something and moved up the ladder. The kids in my program will do the same.
60% of machinists wages to start? That can't work. It'd mean $18.00 or $19.00 for somebody right off the street. No way to justify that. And no room to give raises for a long, long time, if we want kids to grow. So we start them modest. We're LOOKING for kids living at home, who can afford to invest some time. But when they've made some investment, we will too, and wages will grow as skill does.
KG
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Often their parents will want them to leave once they start working. That's what my dad did.
Richard W.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.