CNC Training - For Real! (I hope)

On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:35:44 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer


Jon,
It is amazing to me that you, a person who keeps complaining about lack of documentation is proposing that MasterCAM authors should ONLY provide information on only half the product.
Then there is a supposed educator complaining that he can only find textbooks that covers the whole program. An educator that proposes the authors delete half the book. Documentation half the program is "FLUFF" ????? WTF ????
-- Tom http://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
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Why are you pasting that comment in this topic? Besides that, the guy who made it is apparently as uninformed as you are if he thinks HSMWorks pocketing is limited. But then again, nobody ever accused you of actually understanding or using the products you blabber constantly about.
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On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:12:03 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

That pretty much sums up Jon Banquer in a nutshell (heavy on the Nut). All anyone need do is stick around long enough and read Jon's posts about spreadsheets, tool libraries, Chaining, post processors, text editors, what an ASCII file is, macros, C++, Visual Basic, to know Jon hasn't a clue how to write a custom program, custom macro let alone a CAD/CAM program.
Jon you said a little over two years ago that you would be writing macros for probing as well as G12 & G13. Please post samples of your work Jon, not something you plagiarized but something YOU wrote. Just to be sure you actually wrote it/them add an explanation of how the macros work.
In Jon's post he imply's he could do it but just doesn't want to or hasn't the time. That misrepresents his knowledge and abilities just like he does on a regular basis about his relationships within the CAD/CAM community;
[ I'm committed to working with HSMWorks to doing just that. Shouldn't be too hard because their head of US operations and I see things in almost the exact same way and because HSMWorks is interested in what I have to say and wants to work with me. ]- Jon Banquer -
[ Who I'm working with to deliver what truly will be the next generation of CAM: www.hsmworks.com ]-Jon Banquer-
[ I understand why your shop did not go with HSMWorks. We have a lot of work to do. ] – Jon Banquer
[ Jon is not affiliated with HSMWorks ApS in any way and that we cannot control what people are writing on the web. Anybody can get evaluation licenses of HSMWorks and test it themselves. I hope this clarifies any doubt. ] - HSMWorks ApS -
********************* ===========================================********************
I wrote a macro for Jon just over two years ago for G12/G13. Jon was complaining his Fanuc Controller didn't have it and he wanted it, needed it, etc. I told him that if he thought it was such a valuable option shut up and write a macro for it. I even wrote one and posted it to get him started.
Jon said he would do it, write macro/s but I bet Jon never has. Who wants to bet against me? Prove me wrong Jon post your Macro/s (macros you wrote not plagiarized).
[[ On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 11:03:55 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Jon,
You where the one not handling change and was complaining that the machine you were running didn't have G12 & G13 canned cycles. I told you to stop complaining about it and program the canned cycle yourself.
I even spent my time to help you Jon by writing you a sample macro* to get you started. It's been nearly a year now, I am sure you never completed your macro's since all you do is complain and never actually complete/do anything. Of course you can prove me wrong by posting your completed macros.
[
wrote:

]
Tom
*
From: snipped-for-privacy@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.machines.cnc Subject: G13 FANUC MACRO : Was : using fanuc and climb milling Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 19:07:59 -0700
wrote:

Fanuc used to have this and for some reason dropped it many years ago.

If it's that valuable a feature for you why don't YOU write one for yourself?

Here is a start for you Jon.
You stated that your company uses a lot of macros so I did not use any #500 variables, I used local variables.
I left you some work if you want it to emulate G12, G13. If you want to make the macro modal like a normal G-Code canned cycle someone who knows how to program macros can easily do it.
If you want the option of CW or CCW that is easy enough to do. I laid it out for you and commented the macro much more than I normally do to help those reading it here in this forum to understand it without having to study it too closely.
There are a lot of ways to go about it, I am showing just one way. There are a lot of ways it can be improved to add more functionality but YOU have to START somewhere and I am not going to do ALL the work for you.
If your machine supports it you can call this 9000 program (macro) two ways.
G65 P9013 X Y Z I D R F Q
or
G113 X Y Z I D R F Q
******************************************
If you want to see how this macro works you can download a trial version of NCPlot at:
http://www.ncplot.com /
*********************************************** I just wrote this macro and have not tested it. ***********************************************
O0001 (TEST SUB-PROGRAM MACRO) G40 G17 G80 G90 G49 G20 G54 G94 M6 T1 S2500 M03 G00 X0.0 Y0.0 /M08 G43 H1 Z1.0 G65 P9013 X0.0 Y0.0 Z-1.0 I10.0 D.5 R.2 F10.0 Q3.0 G00 Z1.0 M9 G40 G0 Z4.0 M5 G91 G28 Z.0 M30
% O9013 (CCW CIRCLE WITH RADIUS LEAD IN/OUT) (SIMILAR TO G13 BUT NOT THE SAME AS) (RADIUS LEAD IN AND OUT IS HALF THE HOLE RADIUS)
(ERROR CHECKING AND ALARM MESSAGES) IF [#17LT0] THEN #3000=3 (PLUNGE FEEDRATE Q LESS THAN ZERO) IF [#9LE0] THEN #3000=4 (NO FEEDRATE GIVEN) IF [#4LE0] THEN #3000=5 (NO HOLE DIAMETER GIVEN) IF [#7LE0] THEN #3000=6 (NO TOOL DIAMETER GIVEN) IF [#4LE#7] THEN #3000=7 (TOOL DIA. TOO LARGE) IF [#24LT0] THEN #3000=8 (NO X LOCATION GIVEN) IF [#24LT0] THEN #3000=9 (NO Y LOCATION GIVEN) IF [#26EQ#0] THEN #3000 (NO Z HOLE DEPTH GIVEN) IF [#18LT0] THEN #3000 (NO CLEAR POINT GIVEN) IF [#18LT#26] THEN #3000 (RAPID CLEAR LT HOLE DEPTH)
#8=#4003 (G90/G91 STORE CURRENT MODE) #1=#5003 (STORE CURENT Z POS.) #2=[#26-#18] (CALCULATE INCREMENTAL Z DEPTH) #5=[[#4-#7]/2] (SUBTRACT TOOL DIA FROM HOLE DIAMETER CONVERT DIAMETER TO RADIUS) #6=#5/2 (LEAD IN AND OUT 1/2 CIRCLE RADIUS)
IF[#17GT0]THEN#100=1(IF Q IS LARGER THAN 0 FEED TO DEPTH) IF[#17EQ0]THEN#100=0(IF Q IS 0 RAPID TO DEPTH) IF[#17LT0]THEN #3000=1(PLUNGE FEED WRONG Q VALUE)
G#8G0X#24Y#25 (G90/G91 RAPID TO HOLE CENTER) G0Z#18 (RAPID TO CLEAR Z POINT) IF[#17GT0] THEN GOTO1 (IF FEEDING TO Z DEPTH GOTO N1) IF[#17EQ0] THEN GOTO2 (IF RAPID TO Z DEPTH GO TO N2) N1 F#17 (PLUNGE FEED RATE) N2 G91 G#100 Z#2 (RAPID OR FEED TO Z END DEPTH) G91G3X#5Y0I#6J0F#9 (RADIUS LEAD IN WITH FEED RATE) G3I-#5 (FULL CIRCLE) G90G3X#24Y#25I-#6J0 (RADIUS LEAD OUT BACK TO START POSITION) G0G90Z[#1] (RAPID TO INITIAL POINT) G[#8] (G CODE BACK TO PREV. G90/91) M99 %
YOU MUST SPECIFY X, Y, Z, I, D, R, F AND Q VALUES IN SUB-PROGRAM CALL OR IT WILL GENERATE AN ERROR.
MAIN PROGRAM CAN BE ABSOLUTE OR INCREMENTAL POSITIONING.
MACRO STORES G90/91 SETTING, RUNS THE MACRO THEN RESETS BACK TO STORED MODE BEFORE RETURNING TO MAIN PROGRAM.
(X Y POSITION TO CENTER OF HOLE) (Z DEPTH/END) (I HOLE DIAMETER) (D TOOL DIAMETER) (R RAPID START/END POSITION) (F FEED RATE FOR CIRCLE) (Q PLUNGE FEED, IF Q=0.0 WILL RAPID TO DEPTH)
Tom ]
*************************** [ From: snipped-for-privacy@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.machines.cnc Subject: Re: G13 FANUC MACRO : Was : using fanuc and climb milling
wrote:

Well I did give you a start.....lol.
I will be editing the macro for my own use to make it emulate G13/12 options, will make it modal and add a loop so it can run multiple DOC passes if needs be.

Tom ]
[
wrote:
Bob,
Well you went to a good source, Tim is a great programmer.
If Parameter #6053 = 13 G13 will execute the macro (Program Number O9013)
*****************************
Make #6054 Change macro program number to O9014. G13 will execute the macro pgm O9014.
This is great stuff and way under utilized IMO.
It's a simple thing to do, you want G13, G12 and don't have it? No need to complain just program it. Got a good idea for a custom G Code, program it. ]
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Paul, you might have missed it earlier, but Jon already thought he DID have a job with a software company. The only problem is, they didn't know it......
[ I'm committed to working with HSMWorks to doing just that. Shouldn't be too hard because their head of US operations and I see things in almost the exact same way and because HSMWorks is interested in what I have to say and wants to work with me. ]- Jon Banquer -
[ Who I'm working with to deliver what truly will be the next generation of CAM: www.hsmworks.com ]-Jon Banquer-
[ I understand why your shop did not go with HSMWorks. We have a lot of work to do. ] – Jon Banquer
[ Jon is not affiliated with HSMWorks ApS in any way and that we cannot control what people are writing on the web. Anybody can get evaluation licenses of HSMWorks and test it themselves. I hope this clarifies any doubt. ] - HSMWorks ApS -
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Joe788 wrote:

They probably draw the line at tenth grade.
--
John R. Carroll



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Could very well be the same old lousy ideas that didn't work when they were first tried years ago and certainly won't work now.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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Actually you have several things that I haven't thought of. My impression right or wrong was like what I went through. First raise in 6 months and every 6 months after that. I had to pay for schooling and tools and there were no company provided uniforms. All this came out of my pocket. When I started top wages were $6.00 an hour. I started at $4.00 an hour. No 401K and only union benefits.
If I wasn't about 75 miles from the Pacific ocean, I would send this kid a maybe a couple of others right on over to you.
Richard W.
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This is *EXACTLY* the type of person who can be trained to be a great machinist and *EXACTLY* the type of person that Kirk Gordon's program will never get.
He's the kind of person who gets hired at the company I work for and excels.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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Keep thinking about Kirk's program. You will realize how badly flawed it is.

Young people aren't stupid. Kirk is proposing a program where he sells high tech and yet he pays as low tech as it gets. All you will ever get is the wrong type of applicant. Kirk simply doesn't have the brains to pull this off and his program shows that. It's a rehashed B.S. program that has been tried and has failed and deservedly so. It's also obvious to any applicant with a clue and who can think that this program starts off by showing that they’re not to be trusted which is beyond stupid but typical of how an "a" hole, jerk like Kirk thinks.
We live in a nothing is permanent world where change happens faster than most people can handle. You have to tailor a program a to fit this reality, make it appealing and make it believable.

Keep thinking about it. You will realize it's far more than the pay rate that stinks about Kirk's lousy program.
The "a" hole hasn't asked so I fail to see the point of doing Kirk's job for him by laying out a program that deals with a rapidly changing world where nothing is permanent and will be accepted by those in the program as one that fits the reality they see in today's world.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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Jon, how many machine shop employees have you hired in your life time? *Being* hired and fired dozens of times is quite a bit different than actually selecting and hiring people.
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wrote:
The "a" hole hasn't asked so I fail to see the point of doing Kirk's job for him by laying out a program that deals with a rapidly changing world where nothing is permanent and will be accepted by those in the program as one that fits the reality they see in today's world.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA **************************************************************************
Please Jon, don't keep us in suspense. Tell us how YOU would do it?
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Create a successful program rather than what Kirk Gordon is creating... a program that will fail to create real machinists who can think independently. At the best Kirk Gordon's program will create the type of button pushing morons that Tom Brewer, Joe788, etc. are experts in creating because of how easily they are threatened by people who can think independently.
Innovative highly successful companies become so and stay so for a reason.... they hire great employees and make them even better.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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How many people have you hired, Jon? I'd wager you've been fired from more jobs than everybody on this board combined. You talking about "real machinists" is about like you trying to "get specific" about anything related to CAM software. Nothing but buzzwords and fluff, making it obvious to everybody reading that you simply have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.
I would really love to hear the idea for YOUR training program though. I'm sure it would involve lots of free streaming videos, and loads of "specifics"!
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Kirk Gordon wrote:

Dunno' if PA has a similar program as NY, but both employees and employers (via tax incentives) benefit from NYS Apprenticeship programs.
http://www.labor.state.ny.us/Apprenticeship/appindex.shtm
My employer almost always has at least one apprentice serving a NYS Mold Maker apprenticeship and my son is doing the same at another shop.
May be worth considering registering your program if PA has such an animal.
And best of luck finding motivated kids these days. Around here about 1 out of 10 is worth keeping.
--
Black Dragon

The 11 is for people with the pride of a 10 and the pocketbook of an 8.
  Click to see the full signature.
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You're being generous.
I had to fire my oldest boy (who now does darned fine hanging sheet rock), the youngest was smart enough to stay the hell away from machine shops.
I dont understand what the big deal is.
My first job in a machine shop was mopping the head. The boss says, as he hands me the mop, "Make sure you get around the toilet real good, you know how us guys always miss." He did that to every new hire, no matter how experienced. He figured if youre too good to swab the head, youre too good to work here. After that it was a rotating duty. We all got to swab the head. He hired kids to work after school for cleaning out chip pans and sweeping floors and after they graduated, he would start them out like he did me. And those 6" Starett scales? I never knew they were used for anything but cracking you on the skull, with the thin edge, for a couple years.
Then I got taught how to grind drills (with the Starett scale and drill grinder gage) and promoted to the cut-off saw. After mastering the saw, I got promoted to deburring and blending. Then it was off to the hog mill, which was a hammered old Cincinnati with a vertical head and an ancient vise I have never seen before or since, and a 4" shell mill that never got changed, only inserts.
But the real joy came as I was learning the shaper! Clapper just doesnt have the same meaning to me as it does to most others...
After the shaper it was off and running to the Lodge & Shipley turret lathe!
I knew I had made it when they put me on the Hardinge chucker with the GE tape reader and the roll switches for offsets.
Then it was off to school! A Sclumberge workstation with APT and COMPACT, used 2-10", 2-5.25" floppies and took 1/2 hour to boot (I think it was a Z80 with 8kb of RAM). We had a time share account with a mainframe at Berzerkly that we could only use at night.
DPNT1 X0.Y0. DPNT2 X1.25 Y0. DLN1 PNT1 PNT2
etc.
Then we got to use EZCAM to program the new BOSS8 R2E3 to cut EDM electrodes!
Dust collectors or masks, mwheh.
Then one day the clouds broke, the shaft of light hit the ground as the angels sang, and the boss bought a Hurco with a 10 station tool changer.
Magic I tell ya.
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On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 04:18:42 -0400, Kirk Gordon
<snip>

<snip> While at a high or macro level you may find the following report of interest. http://www.whitehouse.gov/asset.aspx?AssetId "01
One of the key observations appears to be: "Worker flexibility is key given the dynamic nature of the U.S. labor market and ongoing technological change. In 2003, for example, a quarter of American workers were in jobs that were not even listed among the Census Bureau’s Occupation codes in 1967, and technological change has only accelerated since then. Environmental-related occupations – which are expected to experience tremendous growth over the next decade – did not exist in comparable data prior to 2000. As we build a new foundation for economic growth in the 21st century, the nation’s workers will be better prepared for ever-changing opportunities if they have strong analytical and interpersonal skills. High-quality education and training is the best way to prepare the workers of today for the jobs of tomorrow."
FWIW -- it does not appear that these are necessarily new skills/abilities but rather new combinations of mainly existing skills/abilities into a novel skill sets.
for specific instructional content and tasking you may find the following helpful: http://efiles.online.dtcc.edu/Syllabi/stanton/MET%20235.doc http://www.ilo.org/public/english/dialogue/sector/techmeet/tmmei98/tmmeir5.htm http://www.maitland.hs.education.nsw.gov.au/faculty_pages/indarts/indarts_assets/docs/syllabus/metals%20and%20engineering.pdf http://www.nhmachine.org/whatisamachinist.html
a few of my own efforts http://mcduffee-associates.us/machining/machiningsyllabi.htm
and some general information http://www.mlisd.k12.mi.us/CTE/Documents/Machine_Trades.pdf http://www.etf.europa.eu/pubmgmt.nsf /(getAttachment)/1B0D23E77876D6F7C12571FE00473D6B/$File/NOTE6UAEET.pdf
US governmental educational material generally ElHi http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal ;jsessionid=GTGdWp2rXqLyq9N482gknr1TzTVmz16kGrTkty4sgY9BSKpMXtWJ!866468985?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=ERICSearchResult&newSearch=true&ERICExtSearch_Descriptor=%22Machine+Repairers%22 http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal ;jsessionid=GTQPzM021vvJqJLThqHXYhQdqHxKWQK0LQJbj2qH628W1tZyr6x9!866468985?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=ERICSearchResult&newSearch=true&ERICExtSearch_Descriptor=%22Engineering+Technicians%22
Commercial packaged training may also be helpful. see http://www.toolingu.com/order_free_class_request.aspx?source_ID=google&_kk=machinist%20training&_ktJc01058-a0f5-472f-abe1-88866fdcb62a&gclid=CLv45-6R05sCFVCF7Qoddmo0JQ http://www.universalclass.com/i/crn/8295.htm?gclid=CMK8qZGS05sCFVeE7Qodjj7JJg
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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F. George McDuffee wrote:

George,
It will take me a while to read what you've offered; but I'll certainly be taking a look. Thanks again for your interest in this, and your suggestions.
I've always thought that being a skilled machinist was the epitome of worker flexibility. Give a real machinist a print for pretty much anthing made out of solid metal, and he should be able to tell you how to make the part, what form the raw material should take (cast, forged, bar stock, or whatever), what tools and equipment and fixtures he'd need, etc. Then, given the right materials and equipment, he/she should be able to make the fixtures, and maybe the tools, and then make the workpiece, and then check it, and more.
He/she should be able to do that with ANY metal object you can draw, and some that you can't. And the equipment might be anything from a tiny file to a giant CNC boring mill to a lapping machine. Naturally, we all have our particular specialties, and not many of us could literally do everything. But I've known people who came close. What other industry can be so incredibly specialized in some areas, and still so broad and flexible, using basically the same set of skills at so many different positions?
I once told somebody that you should be able to take a skilled machinist, drop him or her into any industrial city in the world, naked, alone, and penniless, and that person would be able to find a job and make a living. I still believe that. In fact, it may be more true now than ever before.
KG
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http://www.doleta.gov/advanced_search/search.cfm?operation=1&query=machinist&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go
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Kirk Gordon wrote:

In my case being naked they'd probably run before I could ask for the job.
:)
Best, Steve
--


Regards,
Steve Saling
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Garlicdude wrote:

Ok. Maybe that was an extreme case. How about "with nothing but a pair of levi's, a pocket tee shirt, and a pair of comfortable shoes."
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