CNC Training - For Real! (I hope)

Put hard numbers on the first 18 months because if they aren't worth the $12.00 it's best for all involved if they move on to a job they are better suited. I would be very carefully how I presented the other rungs of the ladder so as to not give false impressions that this is where they will be or should be in X number of months/years.

Like Garlicdude I prefer self-paced training and when they are ready they should move on. Having said that however there should still be a minimum number of hours or days spent in various departments. This is manufacturing, the day to day operation is often repetitive and at times just plain boring but they are tasks that have to be performed so you don't need to load a shop full of ADD.

Spell it out, what you are doing for them and what they are doing for you. A great opportunity for the right person/s, especially for someone that can't afford to pursue higher education. A degree could cost a few hundred thousand over a few years or they can work with you and earn while they learn. At the end they would be earning comparable wage or more than entry level college grad. That is a huge swing with no incurred debt or student loans to pay off after they graduate.

If it is a certified apprenticeship program the apprentice will work minimum eight hours a day paid and go to school four hours, two or three times a week unpaid. Doubt you can do same if it is on your property and not a formal program, not sure how it will apply if you give them homework, check local labor laws. But your costs, risk can be limited and spread out over time.

Your agreement should have a 30-90 day trial period if local law allows it. Spend a day of introduction, orientation and safety for their first assignment before letting them loose.

First few weeks of janitorial duties may be six or seven hours a day work and class for the remainder of eight hour shift. First classes Safety, proper use and care of tools, and specific training for what ever department/duties they move to next.

He did approve the project so he must believe there is something positive to it.

I have seen management inflate the cost of training, what you can do to help him is nip it in the bud, give him the numbers when you finalize the plan, don't let him/them guess they will always be too high.

Paying a trainee $9.00 hour does not mean it costs $360.00 week for training + materials + equipment + your salary.

If trainee makes $9.00 hour to start it isn't costing $360.00 a week to train. They are working for the company and it is benefiting whether they are moping floors or cleaning sump tanks it's jobs that have to be performed.

If classroom instruction is 5 hours a week then you can say it cost $45.00 but not if they are making $9.00 hour and you are paying others $12.00 hour for the same job. The disparity in pay IS paying for the training and may actually equal ZERO cost to the company. You would have to track some measurable's to verify real costs of training vs. benefits to the company.

Operating a machine yes they will take a little more supervision but that is why there is a disparity in pay between a trainee and experienced operator. Repairman's helper, Machinists helper, Plant Maintenance helper same thing.

I assume you are on salary, you get paid to do a job no matter how many hours a day or days in the week it takes you to get your job done. That makes you (IMO) a fixed cost, company overhead so to speak so your salary should not be part of the equation. Also I believe you are the type person who for every hour you spend at work on this project you spent 5X that amount on your "off" hours.

I am wondering if there are not current employees that may want into your program. That's the only real snag I see that hasn't been touched on so far. Excluding current employees and not offering them a chance could cause some internal resentment and festering issues over time.

-- Tom

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 04:18:42 -0400, Kirk Gordon wrote:

While at a high or macro level you may find the following report of interest.

One of the key observations appears to be: "Worker flexibility is key given the dynamic nature of the U.S. labor market and ongoing technological change. In 2003, for example, a quarter of American workers were in jobs that were not even listed among the Census Bureau?s Occupation codes in 1967, and technological change has only accelerated since then. Environmental-related occupations ? which are expected to experience tremendous growth over the next decade ? did not exist in comparable data prior to 2000. As we build a new foundation for economic growth in the 21st century, the nation?s workers will be better prepared for ever-changing opportunities if they have strong analytical and interpersonal skills. High-quality education and training is the best way to prepare the workers of today for the jobs of tomorrow."

FWIW -- it does not appear that these are necessarily new skills/abilities but rather new combinations of mainly existing skills/abilities into a novel skill sets.

for specific instructional content and tasking you may find the following helpful:

a few of my own efforts and some general information $File/NOTE6UAEET.pdf US governmental educational material generally ElHi ?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=ERICSearchResult&newSearch=true&ERICExtSearch_Descriptor=%22Machine+Repairers%22?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=ERICSearchResult&newSearch=true&ERICExtSearch_Descriptor=%22Engineering+Technicians%22 Commercial packaged training may also be helpful. see ?gclid=CMK8qZGS05sCFVeE7Qodjj7JJg

Unka' George [George McDuffee]

------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Unemployment department, first thing someone coming out of the military would/should do is file unemployment.

Check with local VFW or recruiters, someone may be able to point you in the right direction.

For formal programs under GI Bill:

-- Tom

The way I see it he's limiting the pool of applicants and will totally lose a lot of real good people. That may have woke up to the fact that they need to do something different at age 20 or 21 maybe even older. I got a teenager that lives here who is making more than minimum wage working at Safeway stocking shelves. Yet I have watched him work on his brakes and struts on his car. If he doesn't know how to fix his car he reads or finds someone to point him in the right direction. This kid who really deserves a chance would have to pass it up because the pay is to low and if I hadn't let him move in here with my family he would be living out of his car. Now he has plans on going to college to be a mechanic and he just graduated HS this year. Also he learns something by watching me when I run the lathe or mill or weld. He already has part of the requirements. This is the type of kids that will fall through the cracks with low pay wages where you must live at home to be able to afford to live or own a car.

My thoughts.

Richard W.

Starting at 50 cents above minimum wage is perfectly acceptable. That's what mold maker apprentices start at now and what I started at as a apprentice pattern maker nearly 30 years ago.

If your kid can't afford to live on his own at the agreed to wage, too bad, nothing prevents him from temporarily supplementing his income with a second job.

Good work Kirk!!! I heard this over the weekend........ on National Paranoid Radio

may be something that will help you. -

Bingo.

You mean no one had a ring in your nose?

How about three jobs, 24 unit quarters and two kids in diapers.

And now days, machinists are a burden to society.

You know, needing pay, benefits and retirement and all that rot.

All I had was desire to learn a trade knowing it would eventually provide me with a way to earn a decent living the rest of my life.

In the mid 80's after buying my first house at the ripe old age of 22 and having our second child a year later I worked two jobs for close to four years to make ends meet while my wife stayed at home and did her job as a domestic engineer.

Without machinists modern society doesn't exist.

So, this smart and resourceful and mechanically inclined HS graduate is working for "more than minimum wage" in a job that goes nowhere, and then he's going to pay money to train to be a mechanic.

Or, he can make $9.00 for just a month, to prove to me that he's a good worker. Then he gets $10.00, plus health and disability insurance, company bought uniforms, discounts on tools, and training that he doesn't have to pay for. After 5 more months of hard work and doing what I show him, he gets ANOTHER dollar raise, and starts serious training in things directly related to machining - still at company expense. By the end of 18 months (less if he works hard and learns quickly), he's at $12.00, plus insurance, plus uniforms, tool discounts, a 401K that matches 100% up to 3% of gross wages, PLUS training on the job, PLUS formal training at one of the local colleges if he needs it, and if he's doing well enough in the program to justify it.

So, here's what the kid should do. He should go to his boss at Safeway, and tell the boss that he wants to be making $12.00 within the next 18 months or less, he wants 5-10 hours a week of overtime (which I offer everybody), he wants Safeway to buy his work clothes, pay (100%) of his health insurance, buy him a disability policy, give him better than average assurances that he may never get laid off in his whole life, AND give him some extra money to go to school to learn to fix cars.

If the boss says yes, the kid's got a good job. If not, then you might want to rethink your opinion of my program. And if you're in SE Pennsylvania, and this is really a kid with some promise, you might want to suggest that he call me.

KG

Sounds like a kindred spirit. I think I'll buy the book and find out. Thanks!

KG

It sounds pretty good to me, Kirk.

I think you're on the right track getting your hands on them young, that way they don't bring bad work habits into the place.

The most important factor of a long term employee is their personality and willingness/desire to learn and work hard. Anybody can learn machining. It's not rocket science. Having a bad attitude is something that almost never goes away. Your program looks like it should weed out the bad apples.

For example, I'd hire a high school drop-out off the street before I ever let JB step into my shop.....oh wait, JB *is* a high school drop- out off the street!

No kidding? You mean the street wouldn't have him either?

KG

George,

It will take me a while to read what you've offered; but I'll certainly be taking a look. Thanks again for your interest in this, and your suggestions.

I've always thought that being a skilled machinist was the epitome of worker flexibility. Give a real machinist a print for pretty much anthing made out of solid metal, and he should be able to tell you how to make the part, what form the raw material should take (cast, forged, bar stock, or whatever), what tools and equipment and fixtures he'd need, etc. Then, given the right materials and equipment, he/she should be able to make the fixtures, and maybe the tools, and then make the workpiece, and then check it, and more.

He/she should be able to do that with ANY metal object you can draw, and some that you can't. And the equipment might be anything from a tiny file to a giant CNC boring mill to a lapping machine. Naturally, we all have our particular specialties, and not many of us could literally do everything. But I've known people who came close. What other industry can be so incredibly specialized in some areas, and still so broad and flexible, using basically the same set of skills at so many different positions?

I once told somebody that you should be able to take a skilled machinist, drop him or her into any industrial city in the world, naked, alone, and penniless, and that person would be able to find a job and make a living. I still believe that. In fact, it may be more true now than ever before.

KG

Is 63 young enough to apply for a job working for you? :>

Can you grind a drill?

In my case being naked they'd probably run before I could ask for the job.

:)

Best, Steve

Ok. Maybe that was an extreme case. How about "with nothing but a pair of levi's, a pocket tee shirt, and a pair of comfortable shoes."

By the time they get to be that age, most people are too smart to want to work for a pain in the ass like me. Why do you think I'm looking for teenagers who don't know any better?

KG