connecting batteries in parallel or series, myth and theory

Well, good luck with that, and since you have no more to provide to a discussion of the subject, farewell. If you ever have any actual practical information to impart someday, let us know. If you should ever be willing to disclose this "different design", there might be something to discuss.

For those of us in alt.energy.homepower we don't construct systems that employ battery banks strictly for the learning experience. (In fact I suspect most of us would rather avoid as many "learning experiences" as possible, as they are often painful.) It seems that you want to design "something different" based on our experience, but aren't interested in acquiring any of your own. You expect us to provide answers to suit your needs, but we just like to examine subjects of interest to us.

By "learn as much of the science as I can", you mean seeing what NewsGroup posters have to say about a subject? To be fare, I should inform you that we seldom cover as much "of the science" as you expect. Some things get left out of the discussions. But if you actually build something that works, you would have to have learned a few more things, related to the issue, than what might appear in a dozen threads.

Then there is the fact that actual projects get a lot of support from interested posters ("z" and his pelton wheel micro-hydro project for example.) If or when, you actually are trying to design or construct something real, try posting again. (Hopefully not too many will remember this run around.)

Luck; Ken

Reply to
Ken Maltby
Loading thread data ...

Any thing I tell you, you will say is not true. So, with that in mind you can search;

Intelec2001.pdf

Here is the abstract

"Abstract This investigation of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in VRLA cells produced three major results. First, VRLA cells produce significant amounts of H2S even at normal float voltages. Second, the lead dioxide in the positive plates absorbs much of this H2S. Third, this =93H2S cycle=94 in VRLA cells results in an equilibrium concentration level of no more than 1 ppm of H2S in the gas space of a typical cell. The data further suggests that even this low amount may decline over time."

This article is several pages and is quite detailed.

Reply to
bealiba

Da nada.

Reply to
bealiba

Search

Intelec2001.pdf

Reply to
bealiba

|> | In the context of recycling "LEAD" is the contaminate. |>

|> No. In that context, anything NOT lead, in the lead, contaminates the lead, |> and would have to be removed before recycling the lead into making new lead |> plates for new batteries ... not considering the trace elements generally |> added to the plates for various reasons. |>

|> What do you think happens to the old battery when you trade in your bad car |> battery to buy a new one? Do you think they're just taking it off your hands |> so you don't have a dead weight laying around? No. They send it to a battery |> recycler, or a battery manufacturer, that pays for them by weight, which is |> an approximation to how much lead they can recover from them for whatever the |> purpose is. | | Again you have demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge.

One area I do have a lack of knowledge about is just what kind of idiocy you might come up with next. But in this case you clearly have not idea what it is that might contaminate lead.

|> |> |> | So lets look at waynes assertion. My first set of batteries was a |> |> |> | parallel string set up. Learned a lesson from that. Followed by three |> |> |> | sets of second hand batteries, well, there was not the cash to do |> |> |> | better at the time. Big crime according to wayne. Still they got me |> |> |> | through to where I could buy a single string of batteries at the |> |> |> | correct Ah capacity. Listen to wayne and you too can do what I did. |> |> |>

|> |> |> All this proves is that you are having better luck with a single string. |> |> |> But based on your apparent knowledge, it is all about luck. You didn't |> |> |> try any of the known methods to deal with issues involving two parallel |> |> |> strings? |> |> | |> |> | Nonsense. It proves that I am right about parallel strings. I also |> |> | tried most of the geewizzery that every one seems to thing is going to |> |> | solve the inherent problems of parallel strings of batteries for home |> |> | power systems. |> |>

|> |> All it proves is you did parallel strings the wrong way N-1 times. |> | |> | No, it means that you will learn an expensive lesson. You have been |> | fishing for someone to tell you what you want to hear and found wayne. |>

|> I have found out there are ways to mitigate the issues of parallel batteries |> and strings. Apparently you never did; not even recently. | | Really! The first and foremost method is to use a single string of the | correct Ah rating.

And of course you will always be saying this over and over and never back it up with specific scientific reasoning.

| Now you can tell us your new discoveries. Of course they won't be new, | they won't be yours and they won't be effective in cost or | application.

I don't have any new discoveries. What makes you think that?

| Been there, done it.

How many different ways did you connect up batteries in parallel? How many different ways are there to connect batteries in parallel?

Reply to
phil-news-nospam

In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: | On Aug 20, 4:30 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |> In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: |>

|> |> >> Batteries can and |> |> >>will give off Hydrogen Sulphide under high charge rates. |> |>

|> |> > The quote is clear - the struckcheral editar wrote that "the" gas is |> |> > "hydogen" sulphide. How dare you dispute an expirt on both riting and |> |> > baterys! |> |>

|> |> > Wayne |> |>

|> |> Looking at an internal gas chart there is no H2S evolved in an overcharge |> |> situation or a heavy discharge situation. There is O, H, CO2 and a dab of N |> |> from the cell but no H2S. |> |>

|> |>

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|> |>

|> |> et alia |> |>

|> |> -- |> |>

|> |> Don Thompson |> |>

|> |> Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once, |> |> and that makes me an expert. " |> |>

|> |> There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance. |> |> ~Goethe |> |>

|> |> It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom; |> |> it is another sight finer to fight for another man's. |> |> ~Mark Twain |> | |> | Just more of waynes dodgy science. If you can smell rotten eggs then |> | you have hydrogen sulphide. |>

|> Searching the internet for cases where lead-acid batteries can give off |> hydrogen sulfide, I find virtually nothing. There's more about using |> H2S for recycling the chemistry of a battery. |>

|> I don't know all the chemistry possible. Given that there is H's and S's in |> the broth, getting H2S is not out of the question. But how? Electrolysis |> would give just H and O. Maybe an arc is needed to get H2S. I guess if you |> get an arc between plates, then you do have a very high rate of "charge". |>

|> The question to answer, then, is why/how does H2S get produced instead of |> just H and O, and under what exact chemical condition? | | Search | | Intelec2001.pdf

By that name, I found such a paper. The conclusion seems to be that H2S is produced on the negative terminal during charging or overcharging. The concentration during float is on the order of 1 ppm. H2S is then absorbed back on the positive terminal maintaining the low concentration. Voltage levels higher than float voltage apparently can cause the H2S to outgas at a faster rate than it can be absorbed. The experiments did not study the effect of electrolyte temperature, so it is still possible for temperature to be an influencing factor. These levels do not pose a human toxic hazard but can be a problem for certain metals in the escaping gas.

So why didn't _you_ just summarize this to explain your statement, and then point at the paper to support the summary? I never said H2S could not be a product of this chemistry. Even before reading this paper it was obvious to me that it could as the elements could balance out to do it. But two big questions were under what conditions, and why was it not normally produced. The answer is that it is reabsorbed. But reaction rates are critical and are effected by voltage.

Reply to
phil-news-nospam

In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: | On Aug 20, 4:19 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |> In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: |>

|> |> >But would he know exactly what gas these bubble contain |> |>

|> |> He's very clear about that, in one of previous battery wisdumb |> |> demonstrations, he asserted that "When charging, the gas given off is |> |> Hydogen Sulphide"

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|> | |> | True, despite your usual quoting out of context. Batteries can and |> | will give off Hydrogen Sulphide under high charge rates. |>

|> How high a charge rate are you talking about? Specific numbers, please. |>

|> -- |> |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance | |> | by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to | |> | Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. | |> | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | | | Any thing I tell you, you will say is not true. So, with that in mind | you can search; | | Intelec2001.pdf | | Here is the abstract | | "Abstract | This investigation of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in VRLA | cells produced three major results. First, VRLA | cells produce significant amounts of H2S even at | normal float voltages. Second, the lead dioxide in | the positive plates absorbs much of this H2S. Third, | this ?H2S cycle? in VRLA cells results in an | equilibrium concentration level of no more than 1 | ppm of H2S in the gas space of a typical cell. The | data further suggests that even this low amount | may decline over time." | | This article is several pages and is quite detailed.

For the benefit of others, this is the paper I found:

formatting link
Several keyword based searches did not turn up this document on the first page of 100 results from Google. That could be due to the flood of pages that described H2S detectors that were battery operated, and thus had the keywords being searched.

When you find important articles/documents/papers, try to save the full URL. If there is any doubt about it, at least the actual contents can be used in another search to see how many other places it might be found at. What I do is save such things in a file path that is the same as the URL starting at the hostname. That way, if I need to cite an article, I can put http:// in front and give the original URL.

Reply to
phil-news-nospam

|> No, actually I'm not setting out to simply mimic what someone else does. |> I had something in mind that no one has apparent ever done before, but |> with some good information I've found here (not what you've given, as |> your info just chalks up one more vote against paralleling anything), |> I've modified by ideas. I haven't given out what these ideas are, yet. |> I might. Or I might not. It will be a new thread if I do. | | Chances are it has been done before and discarded as pointless.

Maybe so. But apparently not by you. I'd think you'd remember it if you did. You'd be able to say what you actually tried, and what degree of effect it had (even if none at all).

I'm not yet going to describe my ideas because they are too numerous in combinations of doing things. I believe they will work. But they may not be ultimately practical. For example, elements of the design may be subject to excess failure (of a circuit, for example), or excess maintenance.

And FYI, most of the ideas actually do _not_ involve parallel batteries.

Reply to
phil-news-nospam

|> > In alt.engineering.electrical Ken Maltby wrote: |> > | Why don't you just get a good stable setup working, |> > | before trying to design something new? |>

|> > You mean, just do what someone else does, the way they do it, first, and |> > see if that succeeds or fails? |>

|> No, I mean that it's best to build a known practical |> design, before attempting to create a modification |> to that design. The point being that, done properly, |> it will work/succeed. It is only your modification |> where there is a need to "see if that succeeds or |> fails". (See below) |>

|> I'm beginning to get the impression that you actually |> have no intention of building a viable system, and that |> this is a purely "intellectual" endeavor, for your personal |> entertainment. |>

|> If that's the case: then the ideas you presented in your |> last post display a great lack of understanding, of the |> basic physics involved, and can't work. |>

|> Luck; |> Ken | | You will find that there is nothing "intellectual" about his attempt | to find someone to tell him it is okay to do stupid things. Also a | fair bet that "he" is in fact a sock puppet of either wayne or ron.

You sure are big on assumptions about things you know nothing about.

Reply to
phil-news-nospam

|> | No, I mean that it's best to build a known practical |> | design, before attempting to create a modification |> | to that design. The point being that, done properly, |> | it will work/succeed. It is only your modification |> | where there is a need to "see if that succeeds or |> | fails". (See below) |> | |> | I'm beginning to get the impression that you actually |> | have no intention of building a viable system, and that |> | this is a purely "intellectual" endeavor, for your personal |> | entertainment. |>

|> The impression is off. I intend to be a viable system. But I do intent |> to |> jump directly to a different design (which has already changed as a result |> of info others have posted in this thread). |>

| | Well, good luck with that, and since you have no more | to provide to a discussion of the subject, farewell.

I'm here trying to get information. Some people have provided some. Maybe they will provide more.

| If you ever have any actual practical information to | impart someday, let us know. If you should ever be | willing to disclose this "different design", there might be | something to discuss.

Sure thing. If I come up with something better, I will. In the mean time I will continue my research and study, which does include talking about it.

| For those of us in alt.energy.homepower we don't construct | systems that employ battery banks strictly for the learning | experience. (In fact I suspect most of us would rather avoid

Neither do I. That's why I'm doing the learning ahead of the design and construction.

| as many "learning experiences" as possible, as they are often | painful.) It seems that you want to design "something different" | based on our experience, but aren't interested in acquiring any | of your own. You expect us to provide answers to suit your | needs, but we just like to examine subjects of interest to us.

So are you saying I should skip the learning and construct every possible design I come up with?

| By "learn as much of the science as I can", you mean seeing | what NewsGroup posters have to say about a subject? To be

Sure. Maybe they know about actual science, or know where they have seen it before.

| fare, I should inform you that we seldom cover as much "of | the science" as you expect. Some things get left out of the | discussions. But if you actually build something that works, | you would have to have learned a few more things, related to | the issue, than what might appear in a dozen threads.

I'll learn as much as I can before I build anything.

| Then there is the fact that actual projects get a lot of support | from interested posters ("z" and his pelton wheel micro-hydro | project for example.) If or when, you actually are trying to design | or construct something real, try posting again. (Hopefully not too | many will remember this run around.)

I'll continue to post when _either_ I have some useful information to offer, or have a question soliciting useful information. For the latter, I have learned that most posts in response fall into these categories:

  1. people providing actual useful information
  2. people intending well, but provide useless information
  3. people providing useless information but really don't care
  4. detractors that just like to post drivel
  5. responses to any of the above
Reply to
phil-news-nospam

You keep saying that, yet curiously aren't willing to share your techniques, or even your current controller settings. Typical pointless Ghinius BS.

Wayne

Reply to
wmbjkREMOVE

In alt.engineering.electrical N9WOS

Reply to
phil-news-nospam

In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net wrote: | On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:57:51 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: | |>On Aug 20, 2:50 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |>> In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: | |>> I have found out there are ways to mitigate the issues of parallel batteries |>> and strings. Apparently you never did; not even recently. | |>Been there, done it. | | You keep saying that, yet curiously aren't willing to share your | techniques, or even your current controller settings. Typical | pointless Ghinius BS.

Why should he share them. They're just classic legacy setups he learned about in his class. He expects everyone else to know these already. He's obviously not an engineer or researcher. He's just an installer. If all I wanted was a classic legacy setup, who knows, he might be a fine contractor to do that job. I would not wanting him to design anything out of the ordinary.

Reply to
phil-news-nospam

I seem to recall a problem with batteries on submarines if they come in contact with sea water there can be H2S produced, bad news in a sub.

Eric

Reply to
Eric

One issue with equalizer charges (besides the temperature rise) is that the current tends to break down the water into H2 and O2. So at the end of equalizer charges when the voltage is allowed to rise, there is more H2 given off than at any other time.

This also means you use somewhat more water to maintain the proper level in the cells.

daestrom

Reply to
daestrom

Bye Ron

Reply to
bealiba

Give and take, wayne

I asked first, more than ten years ago, and to date you have failed to provide any meaningful numbers to support your claims about your system.

My regulator's settings are with in the operational parameters of the battery and system.

Reply to
bealiba

| I seem to recall a problem with batteries on submarines if they come in | contact with sea water there can be H2S produced, bad news in a sub.

I've seen people glue copper pennies the outside of car batteries. And for some, there was corrosion. Supposedly it would prevent or reduce the impact on the actual terminals (even though they had some anyway). I never found out what the corrosion was. I assumed (lightly, recognizing I didn't really know for sure) that it was gaseous H2SO4 causing it. But maybe H2S, maybe with something in the air along with it?

Reply to
phil-news-nospam

In alt.engineering.electrical daestrom wrote: | snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |> In alt.engineering.electrical Ken Maltby |> wrote: |>

|>> Equalization should be done based on the hydrometer readings |>> of your cells being out of whack. As a scheduled activity most |>> advice I've seen suggests once every six months. These types of |>> routine equalization only last 1-3hrs. Any time you are so severely |>> overvolting the batteries you NEED to be closely monitoring the |>> batteries, especially the temperatures, and MUST suspend charging |>> until they return to normal temperatures, before continuing the |>> equalization. (The equalization process stresses and shortens the |>> lifespan of a battery, just not nearly as much as allowing the |>> sulfide buildup.) |>

|> I'd be interested in what effect would come of more frequent, but |> short term, charging pulses at an equalization level, done only when |> the batteries are topped off at 100%. Instead of 1-3 hours, maybe a |> couple minutes, then wait |> an hour, then two more minutes, and repeat this maybe a couple times |> each |> day when there has been some recent period of less than 100% charge. |>

| | One issue with equalizer charges (besides the temperature rise) is that the | current tends to break down the water into H2 and O2. So at the end of | equalizer charges when the voltage is allowed to rise, there is more H2 | given off than at any other time. | | This also means you use somewhat more water to maintain the proper level in | the cells.

My plan is to use a separate building away from the house, with ventilation, constructed for natural temperature management, along with solar heaters and water thermal storage to keep temperatures above freezing in the winter.

I guess I need some gas detectors for H2 and H2S. The latter will need to be on the floor, since H2S is heavier than ordinary air.

Reply to
phil-news-nospam

Sulphide"

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|> |

Looking at the stated purpose of the paper and the "test setup" drawn in the paper it would seem that the test conditions do not match the purpose. As I understand it, in a VRLA cell the electrolyte has only limited contact with the plates. Determined by capillary action in the separator material, pressure between the plates and cetera. The test setup looks to be a Flooded Cell. The paper states that the H2S seems to be a byproduct of some unidentified impurity in the H2SO4 used to make up their electrolyte and that H2S production fell to 0 after a short time. They were able to make the plates produce more H2S only by replacing the electrolyte in the test cell. A condition not likely to occur in use.

My conclusion: To state that "THE gasses produced from charging/discharging LA batteries "is H2S" is close to idiocy."

OK. Now this subject new evidence or it is exhausted.

Reply to
Don T

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