Alternate Schlage cores for Baldwin, Abus, etc.

Check your e-mail

Well, as a practicing locksmith (for 18 years) I am in a real rough spot. You see, you're posting a message on an open forum, asking me to help you avoid hiring a brother locksmith. I know I post advice all the time on lawn mower repair and things like that. But, hmm..... thinking about this.... and then you mention that you get a lot of stuff at Home Cheepo, which is the competition for locksmiths.

Alan:

First off it sounds like you approached this "local locksmith" with an attitude... Second why don't you just find another locksmith to order these materials from...

1. It is called a mortise cylinder, and they are available from anyone who will sell you one and will fir almost any mortise style lock with only a few exceptions...

1. In order for you to obtain KIK cylinders that would be the correct type for your lock, a locksmith would have to take a look at your locks and determine the correct type of cylinder to order as even within the same brand of lock there are many different styles of cylinder in this application...

2. Yes those locks are available in the Schlage E keyway, you will have to order a new lock and it may take some time as it could be a special order item if the locksmiths distributor doesn't keep them in stock... It will be cheaper for you in this instance to purchase a new lock rather than order just a cylinder for it, as sometimes parts can end up costing more than the item itself after markup...

1. You need a rim cylinder for this lock... Yes they are, like mortise cylinders, available in this keyway...

2. Schlage "E" blanks are available at any hardware store, but you may have to refer to them by these numbers SC8 for a 5 pin blank and SC9 for s 6 pin blank, the "H" blanks are something you will have to get from a locksmith as many hardware stores don't have much need to keep them in stock...

I have a few questions for you, to see how you expect to deal with a few things...

How are you going to key these new locks ??? Designing a master key system using sectional keyways is more complicated than just keying up the locks the same way and having keys cut on the new section... Especially with open keyways like the ones you intend to use, as if someone figured out what you are doing anyone with a key to one of your buildings could easily obtain a blank and then have a key for both of your buildings... Do you have any training in master keying locks ??? Do you understand how to do it properly ??? There is much more to it than dropping pins into a cylinder, and I covered that in another topic, look for the thread "Master Keying Schlage Locks - Why No #1 Master Pin" in the archives of this newsgroup... I would seriously consider having someone who is proficient at master keying handle this job for you, as your attempt at it could prove to be more harm than good...

You wanting to "simplify your life" and only carry one master key is a matter of convenience, which s the wrong thing to take into consideration when designing a master key system... Is it really that PAINFUL to have one extra key on your keyring... I know its so heavy... I will feel for you when you carry around 50 or 60 keys like I do when I am at work...

I think, like I made mention of before, that you went into your "local locksmith" with the attitude that you did not NEED to pay for his labor... It is no wonder that you are unable to purchase anything from him without him installing it... You can try another locksmith in your area and approach it with less attitude next time, or search on line and find your own distributor to buy from... I am not going to tell you exactly where to but things from, as it took me time to gain the trust of a professional who clued me in to a few things... If I went and told everyone everything I knew, just because they asked, then that would mean all of the time and work it took me to acquire this knowledge becomes worthless... I have obtained literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of materials (for the company I work for) from a locksmith BEFORE I was clued into the channels of distribution in my area...

Good Luck with your endeavor...

Evan the Maintenance Man

I certainly hope I didn't. I respect him and the way he runs his business, and hire him whenever I am either too busy or not capable of handling a problem. He simply has a policy of not catering to do-it-yourselfers. He is a craftsman, that is his decision and I respect it.

Perhaps you could clear up one thing that confuses me. One of the things on my shopping list was a pinning kit. He told me that he is prohibited by law (California) from selling them. Yet I see companies like McMaster-Carr, MSC, and Grainger selling them, plus the cheap single-use kits at Home Depot.

That is exactly what I was trying to do in my post. Rather than spend time (and gas money) running all over town, I was hoping to use the magic of the internet. I don't like the quality at the big home stores (Home Depot, Lowes, etc.), but at least they don't turn away DIY'ers.

If you can recommend a locksmith in the Pasadena (CA) area that will cheerfully deal with a DIY'er, I would love to give him my business. I prefer to patronize local businesses whenever possible, but in this case it looked like online would be more fruitful.

Thanks for the answers to my questions -- they really help.

I agree. One purpose of this exercise is to help me learn how to do it right. I still have my Locksmithing Institute workbooks from 30 years ago, but since I took a different career path I don't have any experience. Of the three books listed in the FAQ, do you have any recommendations? Are there any other books you would suggest?

Yes, I did read the thread about "Why No #1 Master Pin" and understand the issue completely. I really do want to do the job right. I'm not trying to save money on this job, I simply want the joy and pride of doing it myself and doing it right.

Thanks, Alan

Other than your imagination where do you see any evidence of that?

I think you are doing this the hard way. Keep both on C keyways and adjust the keying. Buying new Schlage cylinders to do this will be pricey.

I don't know the specific California laws on this issue and I am not going to spend my time looking them up for you on-line... It may be that a law that allows citizens to do some work on their own homes, but regulates work done on any other premesis (such as multi-unit buildings) to licensed professionals... What kind of facilities did you say you wanted to do the work on again ?

Time and Gas money ??? Look in a phone book and let your fingers do all that work on your telelphone's keypad... Finding a locksmith that is down the street from you on this newsgroup would be like finding a needle in a haysatck, but maybe you will be lucky and lightening will strike...

The funny thing about living and working in Massachusetts is that I don't know too many people on the West Coast... Sorry but I won't be able to recommend anyone...

Read as much as you can... Reading books written by different people will allow you to find someone who explains the subject in a slightly different way you can understand more readily...

Hmm... You have been in business how long ??? Are you seriuosly going to tell me that you would NOT sell cylinders over the counter to a walk in customer who wanted them ???

Evan the Maintenance Man

Since I'm going to be replacing all the locks (except for the front door) anyway, cost is not a big issue. I had hoped to swap just the cores in the Asus padlocks, but it looks like that is not feasable. Instead, I'll re-pin them and use them at the facility with C keyways. No big deal.

I admit that the idea of having two masterkey systems (on different keyways) with a common master cut may not be good in many circumstances, I think it is good enough in this case. If the guy with the other master key is clever enough to figure this out (unlikely), I don't have a problem with that. We've been closer than brothers for over 30 years. There will be no other keys in common between the two systems.

The nice thing about doing this all by myself is that if I decide I made a mistake, it is easy for me to correct it.

Alan

I did search the California Codes and couldn't find anything that mentioned it (picks, etc. yes, but not pinning kits). That's why I asked. I'm going to be doing this work at my own home and my cabin.

Actually, I did that before I posted. The first one I called said that padlocks with an E keyway were not available. The second one kept putting me on hold to answer the other line. After the fifth time trying to ask my questions, I gave up and posted my note. I figured that it would be easier to deal with an online store via e-mail than sit listening to music on hold until my ear was flattened.

I agree. Are there any authors of master keying books that you consider particularly good (or bad)? What books do you rely on?

Alan

I don't see any logic in prohibiting the sale of pinning kits. But I never underestimate the capability of the gov't of Calif. to do wierd things.

That depends. How many of the cylinders he wants do I have in stock? Do I need those for an upcoming job? Even if not do I want to get stuck on a future service call without them? Have I had problems in the past with people buying the wrong thing and then wanting to return it? Do I want to be bothered with that? Have I had people buy things and then call up for an hours worth of free advice about how to install it in an application it doesn't belong in anyway? Do I want to be bothered with that? Have I had people try to return things that are either a. damaged by poor installation, b. not even mine? Do I want to be bothered with that? Do I just plain and simple have a policy, reasonable or not, against selling parts and supplies over the counter?

He said the locksmith told him he didn't sell materials. Some people don't. You have no logical reason to assume that he must somehow be at fault because the locksmith wouldn't sell to him without labor.

your f***ed up......... PLAIN & SIMPLE

If you have 25 on the shelf & he wants 10, then order 10 to replace what you sold.

What does K-mart do when someone wants to buy something off their shelf??? Say no, we may need those for someone else???

Iam sure when someone walks in for a Kwikset key to be duplicated you dont say well, i olny have 47 blanks, and i may need them next month when i may have to cut 46 - sorry, cant help you.

If whoever needs the "E" cylinders... and padlocks wants- contact me,..... i will get what you need.

A padlock option is to use an american 3600 series padlock with an ilco cylinder that accepts "E" keys... Master also makes a 66/6700 series that accepts KIK cylinders. Abus makes a cylinder for their padlock- but it accepts c-L keyblanks

Comparing a typical locksmith shop with a K-mart - its automated point of sale inventory control and reordering mechanisms is kind of silly. I susupect most lock shops base their parts inventories on their own pereived needs and are not designed to cater to the DIY'ers.

There is a very reasonable basis for comparison - they are both businesses and are both trying to make a profit. (Or should be.)

Unfortunately, too many small businesses (locksmith shops and others) lose sight of, or are not capable of this goal.

The usual small business doesn't have automated POS stuff - and doesn't need it. But it still has some inventory control and a reordering "mechanism" (usually known as the "phone" or "online". :-)

Why shouldn't they do both - and earn money on *both*? Or is it so important to have a static inventory that one should turn away (profit-making) sales?

Right. Offer to sell the 10 at a price that includes the cost of reordering plus a reasonable profit margin. The locksmith shop would gladly sell the 10 in a "package" deal including installation - right? In that case there would be two profit components - the parts and the labor. But there is no labor profit in a sale to the DIYer - but why chase him somewhere else and also lose the profit on the parts? In addition, getting the DIYer as a parts customer (at a profit!) might lead to later labor - if the DIYer runs into something more complicated and needs to buy the whole package - why not have a good relationship?

Right - that is a good reason.

However I got the impression that the OP walked into a store front shop.

I'm not arguing about this.

Neither am I arguing about this. My *discussion* was over being a good businessman. I'm sure that you sell the things as a price which covers the costs and yields a profit commensurate with the time you use and the hassles you encounter.