Help with opening and changing combination on old Mosler Combination Lock

Tim

I haven't opened the container yet. I attack it when the mood or a new idea hits me.

Thanks for the information. Forget what the pundants say. I appreciate the dilog, discussion, and explanations that you provide/provided.

Take care

Tim Mathews wrote:

Yes. Turn the dial 4 times to the L and stop on 50. Turn the dial R and see if it drops in and unlocks.

It's generally bad security practice to choose combos where all numbers end in 0 or 5. The combo is unlikely to be one of those unless it was intentionally set on that when it was retired.

If you already have a good drill all you will need are some carbide bits. Get the ones used for drilling steel though not concrete. You can get them local from a well stocked hardware or metal working supply store or from Foley Belsaw or Lockmasters, either place will sell those to anyone. If the hardplate is carbide chip, I beleive Mosler called theirs Reslom, then a diamond core bit will make things easier or you can drill and then punch to break up the chips then drill some more.

"Tecnic" snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Since you have access to the inside of the container you might want to see if you can CAREFULLY drill right through the inner panel of the cabinet and through the back of the lockcase at the fence. Use drill stops like the other guy said so you don't break through and destroy things inside the lock case. Move the stop a little at a time to allow you to drill a little deeper until you are through the case. Since the driver and lever is on the front, which also means the wheels align back to front you should have a good view of the gates aligning under the fence this way. If you are dead on accurate you could even use a probe to line up the gates if they are hard to see through the small hole you drill. I beleive the wheel pack on this lock is mounted to the rear cover so there is not much clearance between the cover and the first wheel. You would have to drill acurately but you should be able to transfer the 66 drill point from the front of the container to the rear with a few measurements then you could easily make a jig to hold a long bit straight inline with the drill point. A peice of tubing the same id as the diameter of the drill bit mounted perpendicular to a steel plate to fasten to the back of the cabinet would work fine for that. This would be especially advantageous if the large hole you already made in the back is inline with the fence. If you do drill from the front from what I have been able to find out there is definitely hard plate, drill in with a regular metal cutting drill bit until it starts to just spin then switch over to carbide tipped, when you get through the plate go back to a regular bit, and be careful that you don't damage the lever when you drill out the solder joint for the fence. If you do it clean the fence will fall loose from the lever and the lever will drop in as soon as the drop in point in the cam comes under it. If you do it wrong the lock may be permanently locked. Don't get me wrong if Carl Cloud reccomends drilling the fence on that lock it is a good way to go just so long as you can do it as well as Carl Cloud. ;).

Good thought on continuing to work from the back. I was thinking earlier that perhaps I could drill through the metal cover attached to the drawer (the one I can lever up but not remove) with the intention of hitting the change key hole. If so I would weld or solder a change key to a long rod and try to align it by feel.

I like your idea of try> > Whothe'

No you misunderstood. Don't drill out the fence from the back. If you can get to the point where you can drill the fence from the back you will be able to see or feel with a probe the wheel gates align under the fence which will negate the need to drill it (the fence) at all. Just drill through the back of the lock to get access to the fence and line up the gates. Like I said before use depth stops on your drill bit because there is very little clearnace between the back cover and the wheel pack you don't want the bit lunging into the lock case when it breaks through. If you did drill the fence off from the back the drill bit will have to be very positively guided or it is going to keep deflecting off the irregular surface. You also would have to drill through the entire length of the fence over the wheels as opposed to just the attaching point of fence to drive cam if you do it from the front. In a nutshell if you drill from the back line up the gates and open in the normal manner, if you drill from the front drill the fence off of the drive cam.

If you hadn't already put a hole in the back I would probably say to just go with what seems to be the industry standard method i.e. drilling through the front. But since you already have a hole in the back you may as well see if you can use it. There is also the issue of not having to replace the lock or any parts if you do it this way. Note that there is another much easier faster opening method on the DOD web site but this involves using either a circular saw or carbide hole saws on the control drawer bolts which means replacing the control drawer. Something which probably isn't a viable option for you.

I never claimed to be an expert on it BUT I have never had any real problem with any of the one's I have opened, so it seems mere mortal non locksmiths (chuckle) can drill safes. If it were me I would have drilled from the front through the plate initially but he's already got a hole, and a rather big one, in the back. You could explain why he can't drill through the back (if that's actually true) but you would rather play super silly secret squirrel. As far as your last idea that is pretty good. Perhaps I will video the next one I open and put it online so people can see it really is no big deal. Thanks for the suggestion.

The drilling the fence sentence must have been the result of an incomplete cut of my text or a misstatement on my part. See the paragraph just before the bad sentence.

Because I have a hole in the back that I can work through my thought was to drill through the back metal cover (probably just mild steel) and expose the key change hole. My intention would not be to drill into the back cover of the lock. If I can get past the metal cover on the back of the front drawer panel I should be able to use a change key. If that isn't possible I'll, using stops, go through the lock back cover and align the gates. If that does not work I am prepared to go through the front. I believe that goes along with your most recent clarification.

I knew I would have to weld up a hole in the end. Being a novice at this I thought I would give myself some extra room with a larger hole. I really started out with a 3/8" hole simply to get the lay of the land and verify my location was good. After learning all I could with that hole I simply used a hole saw to open it up to facilitate easier access.

A word to the Pundants! The sharing of information is not the problem. The problem comes in how one uses the shared information. As was said several times, with the internet, everything is out there. The problem lies with the individual in there actions. I recognize that you professionals can do this job faster and perhaps better. If I had a bank of 20 cabinets that I needed to get into, I would involve the professional. I have one cabinet, I've opened other S & G and Mosler locks before, granted not in as formidable a cabinet. Regardless, I believe, as with any mechanical, man made item, if one has the time, the capability, an understanding, and the equipment to get there, one can.

I d> > Good thought on continuing to work from the back. I was thinking

This ain't the best thing to start learning safe opening on but you've heard that already, and it's certainly not the worst, if you are going to do it yourself have at it. There's a first time for everybody. You may even open it. Eventually. I will ask you one obvious question though that hopefully you have already asked yourself before you go doing any more drilling inside the thing: Are you sure this is a key change lock?

Is this the label in the upper left corner of the cabinet? It should be a silver label that says General Services Approved Security Container or words to that effect. If the lettering on the label is red it will definitely have a carbide chip hardplate. If it's black it might but probably not, it will still have hard plate though. Most of these on the surplus market are black label. Keep in mind too that the best forced entry rating on these things is 10 minutes, most are 5, or none at all, so records is really about all you should keep in it and even for that many of these are uninsulated containers offering no fire protection.

I've asked myself that question (is this a key change lock) many times. To this point I am not sure it is a key change lock. With what I have available to me or viewable, I am unable to figure out how to confirm the question one way or the other without going further.

This would not be my first safe opening. I've opened S & G units from the side or back. Fortunately, I never had to drill through the face plate, before this one anyway. I started from the back and just thought I would try to take full advantage of the opening without making more work for myself by starting a new penetration from the front.

Thanks for the clear information on the silver label. All the lettering on my label is black.

New, question. If I continue from the back and drill through the drawer cover (over the lock) to expose the lock rear cover. Is that center plate anything other than mild steel?

Steve wrote:

you HAVE determined this IS a 302? then it can or cannot be a key change.. the key hole would be plugged with 'goop' if its NOT a key change.. HOWEVER, careful 'digging, might remive the material allowing you to see the actual wheels..this THRU the key change hole.. this would allow you to determine the actual RELATIONSHIP of the numbers, then it might be possible to change to drop point.. with NO further damage to the lock.

--Shiva--

Is there a changing index mark on the dial ring or just the opening index? I could be wrong because I don't know that much about Mosler but every key change lock I have seen has a changing and an opening index mark. If you have messed with S&G locks you know what I mean. Is the hole you already drilled inline with the fence? If it is in your place at this point I would probably try to drill through the panel and lock case at the fence and scope or probe the wheels at the fence because you can determine it's exact location based on the drill point you already have from the front. Just transfer that point to the back. Since you don't even know if the lock is key change you can't possibly know where the change key hole is if it has one. On an S&G 6730 it's down around 3/4 X 40 if it's RH or 3/4 X 5 if it's VD but on the Mosler I don't know.

Like Tim said if it's Mosler 302 and on that if it is it should be MR302, key change there should be a change index mark on the dial ring at about

Good.

I've opened S & G units from

This one is designed to make that harder.

Fortunately, I never had to drill through the face

Lucky for you. If you drill the hard plate on the red label you would be going through a lot of carbide bits.

I don't know. If I had to guess I would say mild steel. I don't do any govt work. I have done a few of these containers for private individuals but through the front. Never attempted to side or back drill one. Because of the problems you are having it really isn't the best way. Also I was initially told how to do them by somebody who did a lot of govt. stuff. There are govt. authorized opening methods for these which allow for either drilling the fence, drilling to scope the gates, or cutting the bolts and replacing the whole drawer head. Those are the only authorized methods and they allow for specific authorized repair methods. Side drilling, back drilling etc would destroy the integrity of the container as far as DOD is concerned and the container would have to be scrapped so in general it just wasn't done that way.

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Thanks for checking. Have not worked on it for a couple of weeks. Been out of town. Plan to pull dial and drill the fence from the front. Just haven't gotten to it. Also need to fabricate a dial puller. I have gone as far as I can from the back, with ease. I had hoped I could access the lock key change hole or lock case proper from the back. I would than have been able to disassemble the lock and avoid any destruction of material. My only repair would be to weld up the back panel which would not have been a big deal. If I had been successful from the back I would not have to drill the lock. I didn't want to drill the lock because I currently do not have a replacement. I doubt I will be close enough to have any chance to resolder the = fence so I'm anticipating I will loose the lock. What are you looking for = in the way of pics? snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: > Navy guy have you opened it yet? > how about some pics > Steve wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:02:09 -0700, Tecnic snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net = wrote: > >