I reread the constitution and cannot find anything giving the federal government the power to regulate the locksmith industry. Seems like each individual state should deal with this particular issue.
Jason D
Tim Mathews wrote:
Jason,
Tim has a problem with locksmiths. He regularly tries to provoke us. This is just more of the same.
<snip>
The trade has been fighting for legislation and regulation of locksmiths for decades but the biggest problem is that they were so good at self policing that many state governments did not see a need. I have lived in 3 states where that was and is the attitude. All of the recent publication of methods of defeat may in fact be an effective argument for showing that there is indeed now a need. We can only hope. BBE.
How about HIPAA, the 2003 federal privacy law that's supposed to protect your medical info? After 3 1/2 years, the number of complaints: 22,000. The number of fines: zero.
The ALOA has been certifying locksmiths for at least 20 years. Get a CRL or CPL. Or better yet, get references and check them. Unlike federal bureaucracy, offering references costs me nothing.
We need less government, not more.
Well Jason I'll tell you what. I will warrant I have read the constitution as many times as you and have never been able to find anything giving the federal government the power to regulate what sort of firearms citizens may own or force citizens to undergo any sort of check to buy them and yet they have done both. This despite the 2nd amendment which states in plain english they shall do nothing of the sort. Is their a specific amendment protecting locks or locksmiths from federal regulation? If there is point me to it. Do the locks you install move in interstate commerce? Better go have a look at how congress has used the interstate commerce clause in the past.
Really Roger I should think you secret squirrels should welcome federal regulation since it would give official recognition to the society of the secret squirrel and would probably actually legally restrict some if not all of the information most in your trade whine endlessly should be kept secret. That as opposed to now when virtually none of it is remotely secret at all and those of you who act as though it is or should be are little more than a source of amusement to people like myself. If you favor security by obscurity to any meaningful degree you better write your senator and congressman and demand federal licensing along with harsh restrictions on who can purchase technical data, code books and software, etc because without it you are just pissing in the wind. Of course locksmiths will fight this tooth and nail because the hard cold fact is many of them would not make it past a serious background check because of criminal history, emotional/mental problems or poor credit/employment history.
BTW I don't have a problem with locksmiths per say. Just with delusional and or dishonest locksmiths who sell known defective products to an unsuspecting public. Admittedly this is likely 80%+ of your trade.
ALOA membership and certification means nothing. ALOA does not even require members to furnish the information needed to conduct a criminal background check or to positively verify identity.
So now it's the "pocketbooks" of the "people" forcing your industry into a security by obscurity model? Individuals within your industry lack the capacity for independent thought and action and are controlled by "people" and their inanimate objects?
WE the locksmiths cannot 'force'
This has nothing to do with security by obscurity it has to do with product quality which admittedly is often lousy. The former may well be why people purchase the latter but the former is in no way dependent on or influenced by the latter. You and your industry at large can abandon the completely discredited SBO model at any time regardless of how crappy the manufacturers product lines are. It's irrelevant. You choose to play secret squirrel for reasons known only to yourselves.
What does how small and insignificant you feel you are have to do with security by obscurity?????
so small, that probable if all the
Still nothing whatever to do with your industries security by obscurity obsession. Honestly conversing with some of you is like having a discussion with 4 year olds. I ask "Little Susie Why did you color on the wall" and you respond "Jimmy has my french fries".
Yes an example of how you have no clue what you are talking about when you claim "the people" insist on security by obscurity. If they wanted obscurity they wouldn't be here asking questions now would they? .
I lost my keys, bla bla and am
Oh no. People asking on usenet for free information. What is the world coming to? They must have the crazy idea that the purpose of Usenet is to freely exchange information or something.
Nothing of the sort has "done passed". I know your arguments are badly flawed and have no chance of succeeding on their own but making nonsense up off the top of your head won't help.
And still haven't, at all, not even a little bit. From the non-sensical jiberish I have seen spew forth from ALOA you may wish to run for president of it or something. I do recall you saying you weren't a member but consider joining. You would be a welcome addition.
It wouldn't be in my life anyway. I have made it very clear
Yes I would imagine I gave it away right off by using logic more advanced than what is typically used on elementary school playgrounds. If this NG contains a representative sample and I were indeed a locksmith that alone would limit me to being one of perhaps 20% within your industry. If federal regulation is ever proposed and there are no better arguments against it than I have seen here it's a done deal.
"Billy B. Edwards Jr." snipped-for-privacy@thelockman.com wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@thelockman.com...
I can think of only one locksmith I have ever known or who's statements I have read here who has said regulation of locksmiths is a good thing. That would be Key, although a search of the archives makes it clear that wasn't always his opinion. OK 2 locksmiths if that is your stated position also. On the other hand I can think of well over a dozen who are decidedly of the opinion that what they and their industry do are none of any government entities business.
but the biggest problem is that they were so good at self
How can the trade self police? That implies that the trade at large has any control over who is and is not a "locksmith". I know of several practicing locksmiths who are not members of any official locksmith organization and many here have shown contempt for ALOA. They are policed by no one. On the other hand I know of at least one individual who has been an ALOA member for years who is not and never has been a practicing locksmith, although ALOA obviously does not know this. I say practicing because technically anyone who works with locks as a hobby or anything else could be called a 'locksmith'. The fact is the trade and trade organizations have no authority or ability to police anyone or anything.
I have lived
The publication of methods of defeat cannot in fact be stopped no matter what you do. It is a direct result of the information age and short of destroying the internet your trade cannot prevent it. Any attempt will likely backfire. Once upon a time when it came to file sharing of music there was only Napster then the RIAA decided to try to shut it down. Now the one has become many. The RIAA had copyright law on their side and failed miserably. Security by Obscurity advocates will fail far worse.
Although publicizing methods of defeat can't be stopped it can be mitigated. Your trade should concentrate on improving design of lock mechanisms to the point that such defeats are rendered academic and are of little practical value. You will make a hell of a lot of money doing it too. Of course to convince customers of the need you will have to largely abandon SBO and explain security problems to them. Alas for many in your trade this is harder than root canal with no Novocaine. I posted this thread to gauge reaction, although I knew what it would be. I know full well no amount of regulation can make security by obscurity work but it would have a lot better chance with draconian federal regulation than without it. Even if your whole industry were soldily behind federal regulation (and as responses to this thread clearly show 99% of them would fight it tooth and nail) it still wouldn't allow you to keep much of anything secret. I would estimate that over 75% of the so called 'sensitive' or 'restricted' information and tools I buy I buy from bonafide practicing locksmiths, and usually for less than the suppliers sell them for. I recently discovered that that includes at least one who posts here fervently in favor of SBO, although he may not associate me with the business name (non-locksmithing related) and address my orders ship to for convenience. Don't worry I'm not going to post your name. You've given me too many good deals on stuff. Most locksmiths only practice what they preach with regard to SBO when it is financially advantageous.
To the best of my knowledge SC, MT, SD, ND are among the states that don't require a specific locksmiths license. There are others that don't either and in fact I can't find any evidence that overregulated NY state does, which is hard to believe, although NYC definitely does. If I'm wrong on any of these which is certainly possible I'm sure somebody will jump in and say so in record time. To run a business you typically do need a Tax ID number, which you may consider a license, but that does not require any criminal background check or proficiency testing nor is it specific to locksmithing.
And I bet you were just sure you were right at the time. The same way you are sure you are right about so much now.
We COULD abandon them RIGHT NOW-so what.. IF the people are buying their locks from 'mass merchandiser', tehy are going to see wahts on the shelf-thats within the budget and PURCHASE..they do not care how 'secure' it is in a lot of cases, just how CHEAP it is.. IMO the BIGGER problem is the builders..I dont want to pay $100 per outside door for a good lock, I want to pay $5, and they do.. Another problem is architects.. I rate them right up there next to politicans as far as brains-they dont have many..
see above.. and try to figure out that ALL the locksmiths in the US 'might' sell ...ehh, being generous, 1% or LESS of the locks sold in the US? we do NOT get asked..
no they come ehr asking questions about how to get the key they lost for a combination Master padlock.. and similar..LOL
I LOVE ignorant folks.. such a joy...its passed and signed..
ME, join ALOA??? ROFLMAO..
no-it was the fact you NEVER paid more than $12.95 for a key.. all you got is OLD cars..
--Shiva--
LOL.. our 'trade' as such I imagine has LITTLE influence on the manufacturers..and as far as they are concerned, the consumer dictates what they will make.. I dont even TRY to sell house locks-there is no money to be made in it..especially when I can go to the local Lowes and buy the locks off the shelf for LESS money than my suppliers sell them to me for-PLUS, if I buy at Lowes, they will rekey to match free..So, why bother selling a loss leader???
--Shiva--
in article 9EA3h.3171$ snipped-for-privacy@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net, Tim Mathews at snipped-for-privacy@spamthis.net wrote on 11/6/06 12:30 AM:
ALOA does require the above information.
"Bonding" through ALOA requires fingerprinting, performed by local/state law enforcement, which they keep on file attached to one's membership number.
"M.C. Merritt" snipped-for-privacy@mchsi.com wrote in message news:C174DF34.55F% snipped-for-privacy@mchsi.com...
I didn't say anything about bonding through ALOA or anyone else. I just looked at ALOA's membership form. Direct me to the part where bonding is required for membership. Incredibly ALOA does not even appear to require an SSN or DOB the absense of which makes any attempt at a background check impossible even if the applicant furnishes all correct information. There are hundreds if not thousands of Tim Mathews in the US, some undoubtably have criminal convictions. Without a DOB/SSN how does ALOA know which Tim Mathews they are actually dealing with? The "sponsor" approach appears good at first but is actually a significant security weakness because once one person compromises such a system they can then make it easier for the next person to do the same and so on. This is roughly equivelant to a cracker obtaining admin rights on a computer system and then using those rights to create other accounts. Note that if the secret squirrels over at ALOA suddenly try to plug these loopholes by now requiring SSN's/DOB's etc I will be taking credit for it but I doubt they will do anything. All they really care about is that the check for those dues doesn't bounce.
On bonding. In the case of bonding how does ALOA know that the person submitting fingerprints is actually the person applying for bond, or to put it another way that the individual applying for bond is actually the person who submitted prints? All they know is whether or not the applicant's stated name matches the name on whatever ID was given to local law enforcement when the printing was done. If the prints are not on file in the national database they don't know that either person is who he or she claims to be. If the prints are on file the fact is they may still not know. The prints can only be matched to whatever name is on file as matching them. If someone has been initially printed for whatever reason under a bogus name that withstood scrutiny at the time even the prints won't tell you who they really are. The system is only as good as the information that goes into it. In either case there is no assurance that the person submitting the application is the person who was actually printed. The bottom line is that all ALOA really knows is that whoever submitted prints either has or does not have a criminal record. The 9-11 hijackers had numerous DMV issued drivers licenses in many bogus names. These licenses would stand a police check because they were real DMV issued ID's. To the best of my knowledge none of them had any prior criminal record. ALOA would have bonded any one of them or any friend of any one of them who could get them to stand in for them for the fignerprinting so long as the name given on the application matched the name given to the police when the printing was done. ALOA would not even know that they weren't US citizens because ALOA doesn't ask for SSN's.
But you don't. You cling to SBO like a drowning man to a life preserver.
so what.. IF the people are
You have trade organizations like ALOA. These trade organizations could put incredible pressure on the lock manufacturers to fix their defective products by threatening to go public if the problems are not fixed then by actually doing it if the manufacturers don't comply. The fact is ALOA doesn't give a flip. They just want their members paying dues to play secret squirrel in the secret squirrel club.
they
Most of them don't know the difference. Do a bump key demo for your custiomers then tell me they don't care. Everyone I have done one for has been pretty unfavorably impressed with the quality of the lock being attacked. Most if not all have done something about it, whether it's upgrading the locks or installing an alarm.
They couldn't do that if companies that sold junk were pressured out of business by your trade organizations. The fact is you would make a ton of mony in the process upgrading defective locks too.
Your business is installing and selling locks yet in your mind you bear no responsibility for locks that fail to provide any security. It's all the builders and the architects fault. Houses that are custom designed by an architect are likely to incorporate more expensive hardware which renders your arguments about cheap builders and consumers moot so what your problem with them other than that they likely make more money than you do is I'm not really sure.
You don't need to be. All you need to do is demonstrate bump keying to every one of your customers who has a vulnerable lock. All your trade organizations need to do is pressure the industry with the threat of publicizing the problem. Of course your trades rocket scientist representatives over at ALOA have made that more difficult with their brain dead press release appluading SBO.
Actually their questions are considerably more diverse than that but it doesn't matter because you have failed to address the point. If the people wanted obscurity they wouldn't be here asking questions at all.
You should. It's becoming increasingly apparent you are one of them.
Cite it. Failure to do so will prove you don't know what you are taling about. And don't come back using typical 4 year old logic and tell me to prove such a law doesn't exist. You made the claim the burden of proof is yours now cite the code. Here I'll give you a headstart on wasting your time:
Why not? You both believe in the same SBO idiocy. They use the logic of a 4 year old. Soon, with hard work, you will be up to that level. It's a match made in heaven.
More evidence that you can't use logic. Problems with your logic here in no particular order:
Just because you evidently can't figure out how to originate a key and have to get the parts dept at some dealer to do it for you doens't mean that's standard locksmithing procedure.
Do all locksmiths drive new cars?
Do all locksmiths do automotive work at all?
Does the fact that the only key I had to get from a dealer was for an older car mean that older cars is all I have or deal with?
Could it be that perhaps I am simply not in the habbit of of losing my key, then losing my spare key?
Like I said I gave it away by using logic more advanced than found on an elementary school playground..........
It's good that you can laugh at your own perceived insignificance.
Because you, or the smart locksmith anyway, does not try to compete with Lowes selling garbage. They sell high security product which should sell itself after you bump open some of the Lowes crap on their doors in record time. Even somebody living in a 20 year old trailer cares if their lock can be bumped open in 10 seconds flat. Don't waste your time claiming otherwise.
PS I'm waiting for a code cite on the non-existent law prohibiting lawsuits against drug companies you made up I let you make the claim over and over without pressing you on it now I'm going to hound you for it until it's clear to everyone you make things up off the top of your head.
then you never dealt with the architects.. for instance.. local school built a building.. MUST guarantee the building for 1 year..
so, whats the door handle requirements? 'handicapped lever' said the hardware book.. no grade, finish, or keyway..
what did they get? handicapped lever..an S series Schlage.. is that a COMMERCIAL lock? no.. did the architect care? no..
the BUILDER did, he was replacing 3 door locks a week for 6 months, till he went in and wholesale replaced them ALL with grade 2 levers.. Is the school happy? no.. cause NOW its THEIR nickle to replace/fix, which they are.. at about $300+ per lock.. whose fault is this? not the builder-they got EXACTLY what was listed on the plans, right or wrong..he supplied as instructed..
same with houses, UNTIL you get into a 'custom'..then talk about getting screwed.. was looking at a local supply house catalog today.. the door PULLS for the front door was $1700 per DOOR. BTW, this mechanism had NO lock, was just the handle to pull the door open or shut
--Shiva--
PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.