'85 Toyota Truck - Engine Dilemma



THis sounds like one of those old stories that go something like:
"My brother-in-law knew this guy, his uncle had a friend who knew how to buy those ww2 surplus jeeps, brand-new still packed in cosmoline, for a hundred bucks. No kidding, would I lie to you?"
Jim
================================================= please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================
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http://www.asapmotors.com/toyota.html
The 20R and later the 22R weren't just car and truck motors. I've seen them powering forklifts, towable generators, and other industrial equipment. For all I know the engine may still be in production even though it's obsolete for automotive use. Where on earth did you get the idea that an engine for a twenty year old truck had to *be* twenty years old?
Later, Joe
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Pull it. You want to completely strip and clean the block after a bearing failure anyway. If the block is damaged, you may not be able to tell without a boil-out. 22R cranks are plentiful, if you need one. The block might already be punched out .030 from the previous rebuild. Measure the bores before you order stuff. JR Dweller in the cellar
Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

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I don't know, but if you are anything like me, I already have too many items on my plate - and if you got 80,000 miles from a $1600 good rebuilt engine - thats 2 cents/mile - I would go with the $1600, bolt it up and be on my way to doing something more important. Ken.
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On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:16:09 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@usaor.net (Kenneth W. Sterling) wrote:

I have to agree. As much as I love building up hotrod engines (I have a Chevy small block on the engine stand right now), unless you have experience, or a good bit of otherwise idle time, you'll be dollars and days ahead just buying a rebuilt engine, and getting on with your regular line of business.
Gary
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Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

<snip>
<snip>
<snipped> Hi Ernie;
I'd say rebuild it. Make SURE the rebuild kit has Felpro gaskets! The World / Beck Arnold / Joes Taco Stand and Gasket Works... head gaskets are pure crap. Double check that the plenum to head gasket and upper to lower plenum gaskets are correct, it isn't unusual to find the gasket provided isn't correct for these two places. Usually a water jacket is either not gasketed or is blocked off. No idea why so many FelPro kits that are supposed to be for a specific year get this wrong, but I've seen it with kits for the Toyota 2TC, 3AC, 22R, and 22RE engines. Saw the same thing with the one for a Suzuki Samarai once also.
You can probably have the crank ground. If the shop wants the block to verify fit, that's fine. When you get it back though, tear it back down and verify the sizes with plastigage and verify all the grinding grit is really out of the oil passages in the crank. I've found grit more than once in the crank "installed" with the new bearings in the block by the machine shop. No excuse for it, but something that many shops just aren't careful about.
The only really "special" tools that come to mind that might not be already in a well equipped shop are:
Ridge Reamer (may be needed, may not) Piston Ring Pliers - maybe 10 bucks Piston Ring Compressor (for putting the pistons back in the bores) Seems they're around $20. The tapered ring style are really nice, the style with the ratching steel band work OK too. Just oil the ring compressor well before tapping the pistons through.
Bore Hone - to put the cross hatch on the bore. If you have to have the block bored the shop that does the work should do this. Another $10 bucks. Use a low speed and plenty of kerosene or WD40. I like using an air drill for this, the speed is low enough to get a good cross hatch without having to move like a spastic hamster having a seizure.
Valve Spring Compressor. As the head will be off the old simple large C clamp style works fine for this engine - maybe $30 or so. Have a clean area when using this, the valve keepers love to drop off when you least expect them too.
And here's the weird one - a long T handled metric hex key to get the cap screw out that holds the plenum assy to the head. I have the Blue Point set, they are just long enough. There isn't enough room to use a hex bit on a ratchet on this engine, the only thing that works is the long T handle. Sorry I don't recall the size, but the Blue Point set was only around $16 from the Snap On truck.
A few lengths of plastigage in the 1 to 4 thou range, don't think this engine needs the thicker stuff. Maybe a buck a length, one or two lengths will probably do the entire job. The PlastiGage I've bought for this size has been green, don't know if that's still the case.
The Bentley manual is excellent, the Haynes is pretty good for this engine. The Chiltons wasn't so hot. Good enough to give most of the info to a guy who has rebuilt a lot of engines, not enough info for a first timer.
You may need to turn some seal drivers if you don't have the Snap On or Mac seal driver kit. I cloned my neighbors set. The dimensions are in the Snap On catalog, they make doing a rebuild quicker. I've used pieces of pipe faced cleanly quite a few times before making a full set.
You HAVE to have a good torque wrench, most likely you already do.
I'm surprised you lost a bearing with this low a mileage, and very surprised you have already had the engine done once. Not using Castrol by any chance are you? The engines I've torn down that were run on Havoline or Valvoline are usually really clean inside, the ones on Castrol are a varnished mess.
Do the job on an engine stand, trying to do it in the truck is more pain than the cost of an engine stand. It's just so much easier on a stand.
Buy or borrow an engine crane if you don't have one. Don't know how much they rent for where you are, around here a weeks rental was about the cost of just buying the darn thing. Once you have one you'll wonder how you lived without it.
Check the clutch while it's all apart, and go ahead and replace the throw out and pilot bearings while it's an easy job.
Don't laugh off the instructions to protect the rod ends while installing the pistons, more than one crank has been scored by someone who thought that putting bits of vacuum hose over the threads is for sissies :-)
I'd go ahead and do a valve job while it's all apart, at least to the extent of inspecting the valves and guides, lapping the valves and verifying they seat correctly. The rebuild kit should include the valve seals. Check the valve spring free and compresed heights while you're at it.
Replace all of the vacuum hoses while it's an easy job. Don't use the no name import stuff, CarQuest brand is made by Gates if you can't get the red spooled Gates from your local supplier. I buy it by the 50 foot spool, it's cheaper than by the foot.
Not really a tough job, just a few minor skills to add to the collection. The first rebuild is always a source of apprehension. I was really scared that I'd screw up completely the first time I did one. Once you've done one, you wonder what you were worried about. My first rebuild went almost 100K miles when the vehicle got totalled by a dork running a red light. The next one went 300K miles when I donated the car to the local VoTech, still running well but in a body going to hell in a hurry and an auto tranny starting to slip. I'm a computer nerd by trade, not a professional mechanic.
Toyota engines are some of the easier rebuilds, the castings are nicely made and well machined and the tolerances are close but not silly tight as on a Samarai engine. Almost as easy as a Farmall engine, but the parts weight a lot less :-)
A nightmare rebuild is a '85 Chevy 2.8 liter - a true POS design.
Cheers, Stan
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Yep, I fully agree. Over the years I've done major rebuilds on a half dozen engines, bored, ground cranks, bearings, balanced, new pistons, cams, lifters, valve jobs, the works. There's no greater feeling than starting an engine that you have had in pieces. What a fine tribute to a workman to assemble a couple hundred parts properly, and see them perform. The one thing I don't recommend, however, is to re-ring an engine, especially one with miles on it. By the time the new rings "seat" (which they often don't do because of the irregular cylinders), you're likely to have a modest oil burner. If the truck is worth the effort, spend the extra few hundred to bore the cylinders and get new pistons. Tapered, out of round cylinders are a pain in the arse. Sort of ruins an otherwise super rebuild job to leave them. I practice what I preach, even though it's not cheap.
Harold
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Interesting! I'm afraid I'd have to come down on the side of the hotroders in this instance. I've bored all but one of the engines I've rebuilt and have had outstanding results. I might agree with not boring a diesel, where compression ratio is very high and thinning the walls might lead to problems, but for a gas engine, even one with 10:1 compression, I've always had very good results. The sleeved engines offer one advantage, that of one being able to do a complete rebuild and still use standard parts, though pulling and pushing the sleeves sure isn't exactly a shade tree industry.
Harold
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Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

Based (loosely) on 398 000 kilometers on my Mazda B2000...
Pull the engine. You can only get half assed acsess to anything with the engine in the truck.
Did the rod blow up or just eat a bearing? If the rod did not blow, there should be no damage to the block. Decide how cheap you want to be. I'm cheap. I buy my parts at the U-pick wreckers, and I know pretty much what models I can pillage to make my truck run for the basics.
Get a Haynes Manual or Chilton's Guide for your trucks. Some of the info is lame or not very useful, but lots of good info in either. I prefer Haynes, YMMV. CHEAP!
Is the price quoted before or after the core charge or exchange on your block? Or is it a cash and carry price? Depending on the core value, it may be a no-brainer. Con rod bearings are a relatively cheap fix. Likely just a grind on the crank and new bearings. The (babbit?) layer on the rod bearing gets eaten, the shell usually keeps the rod from taking a serious beating. When I did mine, I was able to get the crank ground, purchase the bearings, and a head gasket for well under $400 CDN. Some judicious cleanup while it was apart was done, but no real heavy dissassembly and it now has about 100,000 km since the last blowup. The job can be done without removing the head, if you want to be real cheap. Count on the amount of time spent hauling your parts to and from the machine shops if you want the whole engine done, and factor that into costing it out, as well as your time rebuilding the rest of it. In my experience, automotive machine shops are one of those places that do not seem to charge near what they are worth. If you can be earning more money than you are saving by doing the work yourself, you may be biting yourself on the arse there. My experience has been that bore wear after 250,000 kilometers was negligible. YMMV. Inspect and measure while the crank is being ground. Use the day or two that the crank is out, to clean up the head, decarbon the ring grooves, and whatever else seems to need to be done. Have a good look at the head for cracks between the plug and valves. If you removed the head, that is.
Fear nothing! It's a mechanical device fercryinoutloud! It's not Brain Science, it's rocket surgery!
I would be calling every number in the phone book as relates to enginge rebuilders or automotive machine shops and checking prices. Here in Edmonton I can get a warranteed 350 chev for a lot less than I could rebuild it for. All I have to do is bring my engine in for exchange, pay the man, and drive home to start the install. Same price with a wait if I want my own engine done top to bottom.
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On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:49:05 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler

Shouldn't be to hard for someone like you. It's all in the details which I know you're good at.

Engine stand without a doubt.

If it was shifting good when it quit don't worry about it. The weak link in these transmissions is the synchro's.

That seems like awfully short life for these engines. Mine had over 400,000 on it when I got rid of it (to my nephew who shortly managed to tear up the synchro in the transmission and then roll the whole truck).

That's a tough call. You won't know till you tear it down.

I've got a 81 factory service manual that's your's for the shipping. It won't cover the fuel injection but the rest should be pretty much the same. I've not found anything better than the factory manuals for many things. This one is pretty good.
I've also got a Chiltons but it's not very good.
Wayne Cook Shamrock, TX
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On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:49:05 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler

Definitely do it on the bench. You need to pull the crank - and doing that in the truck is not worth the aggravation.

rebuild it right, and you should get another 185,000 out of it.

You WILL need the crank reground, or most likely replaced. If the mains did not spin, and the rod did not smash the block, the block MAY be re-useable, but will likely require reboring - and having already been rebuilt once, it may be close to the limit.

Find a good low mileage Celica? - much easier to find than the truck, and uses the same engine.

The Toyota engine manual, if you can find it.

Out on the "left coast" a lot of Toyota cab and chassis units were converted into mini motorhomes. Should be able to find a beater with a good 1 ton HD rear end you can get cheap and bolt on - duallys and all.
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You might want to find the parts and what they cost first. Toyota parts are not cheap. michael

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On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:49:05 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
......and in reply I say!:
I am no mechanic. Just a DIY nut with lots of motors.

Don't know about your insurance people, but when I looked into this they were pretty leery of any mods.

My first rebuild. I did up my Stout petrol motor years ago. I was nervous. I had had the top off a motor bike engine, but that was it.
If you are a "rebuild virgin", get another old engine and do that up. That's what I did. I got an old junked motor, and pulled it down, and built it up. I replaced no parts, but felt happier about diving in after that. I had seen where everything went.
It was much later that I blew up the Stout motor by not re-seating the distributor properly on a "minor" (read less care!) job. No oil pump drive. Defective oil light. D'OH.
So that was why I rebuilt that engine twice <G>.
When you first want to start the engine, make sure all the warning lights are red, before you ever turn that motor over!
One thing. I have told this against myself before. Don't try to assess the situation. Be the Meccano man who disassembles and reassembles. I bought all the right gear: micrometers, inner and outer; dial gauges; you name it. I was only going to "do the necessary work" to save money. I took all sorts of measurements and had bugger all idea what I was looking for. I took the motor bits down to the engineering shop. The guy stuck his finger in the bore and scratched the ring ridges with his nail..."hmmmm 30 thou "(or whatever) "or so I reckon".... "hmmmm....two oversized on the big end" etc etc....Bah! They did all the machining, and sold me a rebuild kit to fit.

Bench. Bench.Bench. Did I say Bench?
If this is a single-cab, then lifting the engine should be easy.
Rebuilding on a bench is: - clean - controllable - a joy     - getting the engine in and out is a PITA. Working on the motor itself on the bench is fascinating and almost meditative. I did the motor, gearbox and clutch. I still remember doing it with joy. I had never touched any of these before. Took my time (like you I had other transport). An engine, and also a gearbox, is a wonderful thing.     - working in-vehicle is terrible.
Maybe a rotating engine stand would be the next step. But have a clean bench right next door. _Lots_ of boxes for bits. At least 20-30 boxes. Each to be labelled. Sounds anal, but it can make things easier. Probably the better you get, the less you need the boxes <G>

Assuming manual. No crunches at gearchange? No grumbling or whining?
But definitely look at doing the clutch and flywheel while the engine is out.

AH. Now THERE'S the problem <G>

By what? The engine failure, or a weakness of the block? Whatver, this is eomsthing you can only tell when you get it down to the engineering shop. maybe point out that _you_ have a source of blocks, so thaye are not tempted?

I ask because my Dyna (diesel) may well have a cracked head. It's really hard to get an uncracked head secondhand If I get one welded up it may crack again. New ones cost a fortune, but I thought I had to go that way. Then it occurred to me that since it's impossible to get a secondhand uncracked head, then there are probably dozens of these motors toodling around with cracked heads, including maybe mine, happy as larry. <G> Sorry.I digress.

Genuine Toyota manual. My Dyna one is amazing. The Stout one was also very good. If you have trouble try www.jensales.com. ****************************************************************************************** Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. The rest sit around and make snide comments.
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email !! <") _/ ) ( ) _//- \__/
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On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:49:05 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler

Then you need to do a complete and brutally honest inspection of the truck- nothing like dumping a ton of money into the engine only to have the electrical system go up in flames. Seen it.
Any pickup that's worked for a living and has that many miles on it will likely have started to sag in the middle- it's inevitable- and is probably getting ready for some big-bucks front end work. Not to mention dried out rubber body seals and brake hoses and a lot of other stuff that just ages.

Never love something that can't love you back.
If you do decide to rebuild the 22R, you should replace the timing chain- when they get old, they break suddenly and smash the expensive timing case casting to smithereens.
-Carl
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