THis sounds like one of those old stories that go something like:
"My brother-in-law knew this guy, his uncle had a friend
who knew how to buy those ww2 surplus jeeps, brand-new
still packed in cosmoline, for a hundred bucks. No
kidding, would I lie to you?"
================================================= please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
The 20R and later the 22R weren't just car and truck motors. I've seen
them powering forklifts, towable generators, and other industrial
equipment. For all I know the engine may still be in production even
though it's obsolete for automotive use. Where on earth did you get the
idea that an engine for a twenty year old truck had to *be* twenty years
Pull it. You want to completely strip and clean the block
after a bearing failure anyway. If the block is damaged, you
may not be able to tell without a boil-out. 22R cranks are
plentiful, if you need one. The block might already be
punched out .030 from the previous rebuild. Measure the
bores before you order stuff.
Dweller in the cellar
Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:
I don't know, but if you are anything like me, I already have too many
items on my plate - and if you got 80,000 miles from a $1600 good
rebuilt engine - thats 2 cents/mile - I would go with the $1600, bolt
it up and be on my way to doing something more important.
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:16:09 GMT, firstname.lastname@example.org (Kenneth W. Sterling)
I have to agree. As much as I love building up hotrod engines
(I have a Chevy small block on the engine stand right now),
unless you have experience, or a good bit of otherwise idle
time, you'll be dollars and days ahead just buying a rebuilt
engine, and getting on with your regular line of business.
I'd say rebuild it. Make SURE the rebuild kit has Felpro gaskets! The
World / Beck Arnold / Joes Taco Stand and Gasket Works... head gaskets
are pure crap. Double check that the plenum to head gasket and upper to
lower plenum gaskets are correct, it isn't unusual to find the gasket
provided isn't correct for these two places. Usually a water jacket is
either not gasketed or is blocked off. No idea why so many FelPro kits
that are supposed to be for a specific year get this wrong, but I've
seen it with kits for the Toyota 2TC, 3AC, 22R, and 22RE engines. Saw
the same thing with the one for a Suzuki Samarai once also.
You can probably have the crank ground. If the shop wants the block to
verify fit, that's fine. When you get it back though, tear it back down
and verify the sizes with plastigage and verify all the grinding grit is
really out of the oil passages in the crank. I've found grit more than
once in the crank "installed" with the new bearings in the block by the
machine shop. No excuse for it, but something that many shops just
aren't careful about.
The only really "special" tools that come to mind that might not be
already in a well equipped shop are:
Ridge Reamer (may be needed, may not)
Piston Ring Pliers - maybe 10 bucks
Piston Ring Compressor (for putting the pistons back in the bores)
Seems they're around $20. The tapered ring style are really nice, the
style with the ratching steel band work OK too. Just oil the ring
compressor well before tapping the pistons through.
Bore Hone - to put the cross hatch on the bore. If you have to have the
block bored the shop that does the work should do this. Another $10
bucks. Use a low speed and plenty of kerosene or WD40. I like using an
air drill for this, the speed is low enough to get a good cross hatch
without having to move like a spastic hamster having a seizure.
Valve Spring Compressor. As the head will be off the old simple large C
clamp style works fine for this engine - maybe $30 or so. Have a clean
area when using this, the valve keepers love to drop off when you least
expect them too.
And here's the weird one - a long T handled metric hex key to get the
cap screw out that holds the plenum assy to the head. I have the Blue
Point set, they are just long enough. There isn't enough room to use a
hex bit on a ratchet on this engine, the only thing that works is the
long T handle. Sorry I don't recall the size, but the Blue Point set
was only around $16 from the Snap On truck.
A few lengths of plastigage in the 1 to 4 thou range, don't think this
engine needs the thicker stuff. Maybe a buck a length, one or two
lengths will probably do the entire job. The PlastiGage I've bought for
this size has been green, don't know if that's still the case.
The Bentley manual is excellent, the Haynes is pretty good for this
engine. The Chiltons wasn't so hot. Good enough to give most of the
info to a guy who has rebuilt a lot of engines, not enough info for a
You may need to turn some seal drivers if you don't have the Snap On or
Mac seal driver kit. I cloned my neighbors set. The dimensions are in
the Snap On catalog, they make doing a rebuild quicker. I've used
pieces of pipe faced cleanly quite a few times before making a full set.
You HAVE to have a good torque wrench, most likely you already do.
I'm surprised you lost a bearing with this low a mileage, and very
surprised you have already had the engine done once. Not using Castrol
by any chance are you? The engines I've torn down that were run on
Havoline or Valvoline are usually really clean inside, the ones on
Castrol are a varnished mess.
Do the job on an engine stand, trying to do it in the truck is more pain
than the cost of an engine stand. It's just so much easier on a stand.
Buy or borrow an engine crane if you don't have one. Don't know how
much they rent for where you are, around here a weeks rental was about
the cost of just buying the darn thing. Once you have one you'll wonder
how you lived without it.
Check the clutch while it's all apart, and go ahead and replace the
throw out and pilot bearings while it's an easy job.
Don't laugh off the instructions to protect the rod ends while
installing the pistons, more than one crank has been scored by someone
who thought that putting bits of vacuum hose over the threads is for
I'd go ahead and do a valve job while it's all apart, at least to the
extent of inspecting the valves and guides, lapping the valves and
verifying they seat correctly. The rebuild kit should include the valve
seals. Check the valve spring free and compresed heights while you're
Replace all of the vacuum hoses while it's an easy job. Don't use the
no name import stuff, CarQuest brand is made by Gates if you can't get
the red spooled Gates from your local supplier. I buy it by the 50 foot
spool, it's cheaper than by the foot.
Not really a tough job, just a few minor skills to add to the
collection. The first rebuild is always a source of apprehension. I
was really scared that I'd screw up completely the first time I did one.
Once you've done one, you wonder what you were worried about. My
first rebuild went almost 100K miles when the vehicle got totalled by a
dork running a red light. The next one went 300K miles when I donated
the car to the local VoTech, still running well but in a body going to
hell in a hurry and an auto tranny starting to slip. I'm a computer
nerd by trade, not a professional mechanic.
Toyota engines are some of the easier rebuilds, the castings are nicely
made and well machined and the tolerances are close but not silly tight
as on a Samarai engine. Almost as easy as a Farmall engine, but the
parts weight a lot less :-)
A nightmare rebuild is a '85 Chevy 2.8 liter - a true POS design.
Yep, I fully agree. Over the years I've done major rebuilds on a half dozen
engines, bored, ground cranks, bearings, balanced, new pistons, cams,
lifters, valve jobs, the works. There's no greater feeling than starting an
engine that you have had in pieces. What a fine tribute to a workman to
assemble a couple hundred parts properly, and see them perform. The one
thing I don't recommend, however, is to re-ring an engine, especially one
with miles on it. By the time the new rings "seat" (which they often don't
do because of the irregular cylinders), you're likely to have a modest oil
burner. If the truck is worth the effort, spend the extra few hundred to
bore the cylinders and get new pistons. Tapered, out of round cylinders are
a pain in the arse. Sort of ruins an otherwise super rebuild job to leave
them. I practice what I preach, even though it's not cheap.
Interesting! I'm afraid I'd have to come down on the side of the
hotroders in this instance. I've bored all but one of the engines I've
rebuilt and have had outstanding results. I might agree with not boring a
diesel, where compression ratio is very high and thinning the walls might
lead to problems, but for a gas engine, even one with 10:1 compression,
I've always had very good results. The sleeved engines offer one
advantage, that of one being able to do a complete rebuild and still use
standard parts, though pulling and pushing the sleeves sure isn't exactly a
shade tree industry.
Based (loosely) on 398 000 kilometers on my Mazda B2000...
Pull the engine. You can only get half assed acsess to anything with
the engine in the truck.
Did the rod blow up or just eat a bearing? If the rod did not blow,
there should be no damage to the block.
Decide how cheap you want to be. I'm cheap. I buy my parts at the
U-pick wreckers, and I know pretty much what models I can pillage to
make my truck run for the basics.
Get a Haynes Manual or Chilton's Guide for your trucks. Some of the
info is lame or not very useful, but lots of good info in either. I
prefer Haynes, YMMV. CHEAP!
Is the price quoted before or after the core charge or exchange on your
block? Or is it a cash and carry price? Depending on the core value, it
may be a no-brainer.
Con rod bearings are a relatively cheap fix. Likely just a grind on the
crank and new bearings. The (babbit?) layer on the rod bearing gets
eaten, the shell usually keeps the rod from taking a serious beating.
When I did mine, I was able to get the crank ground, purchase the
bearings, and a head gasket for well under $400 CDN. Some judicious
cleanup while it was apart was done, but no real heavy dissassembly and
it now has about 100,000 km since the last blowup. The job can be done
without removing the head, if you want to be real cheap.
Count on the amount of time spent hauling your parts to and from the
machine shops if you want the whole engine done, and factor that into
costing it out, as well as your time rebuilding the rest of it. In my
experience, automotive machine shops are one of those places that do not
seem to charge near what they are worth. If you can be earning more
money than you are saving by doing the work yourself, you may be biting
yourself on the arse there.
My experience has been that bore wear after 250,000 kilometers was
negligible. YMMV. Inspect and measure while the crank is being ground.
Use the day or two that the crank is out, to clean up the head, decarbon
the ring grooves, and whatever else seems to need to be done. Have a
good look at the head for cracks between the plug and valves. If you
removed the head, that is.
Fear nothing! It's a mechanical device fercryinoutloud! It's not Brain
Science, it's rocket surgery!
I would be calling every number in the phone book as relates to enginge
rebuilders or automotive machine shops and checking prices. Here in
Edmonton I can get a warranteed 350 chev for a lot less than I could
rebuild it for. All I have to do is bring my engine in for exchange, pay
the man, and drive home to start the install. Same price with a wait if
I want my own engine done top to bottom.
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:49:05 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
Shouldn't be to hard for someone like you. It's all in the details
which I know you're good at.
Engine stand without a doubt.
If it was shifting good when it quit don't worry about it. The weak
link in these transmissions is the synchro's.
That seems like awfully short life for these engines. Mine had over
400,000 on it when I got rid of it (to my nephew who shortly managed
to tear up the synchro in the transmission and then roll the whole
That's a tough call. You won't know till you tear it down.
I've got a 81 factory service manual that's your's for the shipping.
It won't cover the fuel injection but the rest should be pretty much
the same. I've not found anything better than the factory manuals for
many things. This one is pretty good.
I've also got a Chiltons but it's not very good.
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:49:05 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
Definitely do it on the bench. You need to pull the crank - and doing
that in the truck is not worth the aggravation.
rebuild it right, and you should get another 185,000 out of it.
You WILL need the crank reground, or most likely replaced. If the
mains did not spin, and the rod did not smash the block, the block MAY
be re-useable, but will likely require reboring - and having already
been rebuilt once, it may be close to the limit.
Find a good low mileage Celica? - much easier to find than the truck,
and uses the same engine.
The Toyota engine manual, if you can find it.
Out on the "left coast" a lot of Toyota cab and chassis units were
converted into mini motorhomes. Should be able to find a beater with a
good 1 ton HD rear end you can get cheap and bolt on - duallys and
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:49:05 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
......and in reply I say!:
I am no mechanic. Just a DIY nut with lots of motors.
Don't know about your insurance people, but when I looked into this
they were pretty leery of any mods.
My first rebuild. I did up my Stout petrol motor years ago. I was
nervous. I had had the top off a motor bike engine, but that was it.
If you are a "rebuild virgin", get another old engine and do that up.
That's what I did. I got an old junked motor, and pulled it down, and
built it up. I replaced no parts, but felt happier about diving in
after that. I had seen where everything went.
It was much later that I blew up the Stout motor by not re-seating the
distributor properly on a "minor" (read less care!) job. No oil pump
drive. Defective oil light. D'OH.
So that was why I rebuilt that engine twice <G>.
When you first want to start the engine, make sure all the warning
lights are red, before you ever turn that motor over!
One thing. I have told this against myself before. Don't try to assess
the situation. Be the Meccano man who disassembles and reassembles. I
bought all the right gear: micrometers, inner and outer; dial gauges;
you name it. I was only going to "do the necessary work" to save
money. I took all sorts of measurements and had bugger all idea what I
was looking for. I took the motor bits down to the engineering shop.
The guy stuck his finger in the bore and scratched the ring ridges
with his nail..."hmmmm 30 thou "(or whatever) "or so I reckon"....
"hmmmm....two oversized on the big end" etc etc....Bah! They did all
the machining, and sold me a rebuild kit to fit.
Bench. Bench.Bench. Did I say Bench?
If this is a single-cab, then lifting the engine should be easy.
Rebuilding on a bench is:
- a joy
- getting the engine in and out is a PITA. Working on the motor
itself on the bench is fascinating and almost meditative. I did the
motor, gearbox and clutch. I still remember doing it with joy. I had
never touched any of these before. Took my time (like you I had other
transport). An engine, and also a gearbox, is a wonderful thing.
- working in-vehicle is terrible.
Maybe a rotating engine stand would be the next step. But have a clean
bench right next door. _Lots_ of boxes for bits. At least 20-30 boxes.
Each to be labelled. Sounds anal, but it can make things easier.
Probably the better you get, the less you need the boxes <G>
Assuming manual. No crunches at gearchange? No grumbling or whining?
But definitely look at doing the clutch and flywheel while the engine
AH. Now THERE'S the problem <G>
By what? The engine failure, or a weakness of the block? Whatver, this
is eomsthing you can only tell when you get it down to the engineering
shop. maybe point out that _you_ have a source of blocks, so thaye are
I ask because my Dyna (diesel) may well have a cracked head. It's
really hard to get an uncracked head secondhand If I get one welded up
it may crack again. New ones cost a fortune, but I thought I had to go
that way. Then it occurred to me that since it's impossible to get a
secondhand uncracked head, then there are probably dozens of these
motors toodling around with cracked heads, including maybe mine, happy
as larry. <G> Sorry.I digress.
Genuine Toyota manual. My Dyna one is amazing. The Stout one was also
very good. If you have trouble try www.jensales.com.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
The rest sit around and make snide comments.
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:49:05 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
Then you need to do a complete and brutally honest inspection of the
truck- nothing like dumping a ton of money into the engine only to
have the electrical system go up in flames. Seen it.
Any pickup that's worked for a living and has that many miles on it
will likely have started to sag in the middle- it's inevitable- and is
probably getting ready for some big-bucks front end work. Not to
mention dried out rubber body seals and brake hoses and a lot of other
stuff that just ages.
Never love something that can't love you back.
If you do decide to rebuild the 22R, you should replace the timing
chain- when they get old, they break suddenly and smash the expensive
timing case casting to smithereens.
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