Apple - VS Made in America?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?_r=2&hp
Not long ago, Apple boasted that its products were made in America.
Today, few are. Almost all of the 70 million iPhones, 30 million iPads and 59 million other products Apple sold last year were manufactured overseas.
Why cant that work come home? Mr. Obama asked.
Mr. Jobss reply was unambiguous. Those jobs arent coming back, he said, according to another dinner guest.
The presidents question touched upon a central conviction at Apple. It isnt just that workers are cheaper abroad. Rather, Apples executives believe the vast scale of overseas factories as well as the flexibility, diligence and industrial skills of foreign workers have so outpaced their American counterparts that Made in the U.S.A. is no longer a viable option for most Apple products.
Apple has become one of the best-known, most admired and most imitated companies on earth, in part through an unrelenting mastery of global operations. Last year, it earned over $400,000 in profit per employee, more than Goldman Sachs, Exxon Mobil or Google.
(more)
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<http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?_r=2&hp
I read the whole article in the paper today. One thing to be aware of is that their (NYT's or Apple's, it was not clear) definition of "engineer" is expansive, as it includes people with associate (2-year) degrees; such degrees are common preparation for a technician in the US, while engineers universally require a 4-year degree.
By the way, the glass they were talking about is the "Gorilla Glass" that Corning has been boasting about.
Joe Gwinn
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On 1/22/2012 11:20 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

part of the problem is the elimination of shop classes for those so inclined, both due to fear of possible lawsuits and because "everybody should go to a 4 year college" - the result is a couple of generations of people who generally have no clue about tools, their use, and so on - it is hard to teach someone who has never held a screwdriver and never held a job to show up and assemble something correctly. And, we insist on "good" jobs - e.g. white collar. Not all people even like white collar work, and certainly not all people are able to do quality white collar work - so we have restricted options in education and training and now cannot be surprised that the results are that industry goes where the ability lies.
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wrote:

The probnlem, Bill, is that we started laying off those "middle-level engineers" in the 1970s and the job market for them since that time has been unstable as hell.
Not many kids are going to stake their future on the prospects of being undercut by a $10,000/year "engineer" from India or an $8,000/year one from China. I can't blame them.
--
Ed Huntress

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I can't understand why anyone would buy a smart phone that you can't easily change out the battery. That doesn't seem very smart.
Working 12 hour days and living in barracks is something that would only work where you are importing peasants from the countryside that need a place to live. What are they going to live in when they get old and need to retire? Oh, I know, when they can't put out you ship them back to the hovel they came from. That is if some mega plant didn't appropriate the familys farm land or pollute the water.
Wasn't it just a little while ago we were reading about Apple iphone workers having to sign a no suicide pledge?
As to the US not producing workers willing to work, I've spent most of my life working with people that put their hearts into doing a good job. I'm speaking of middle level and down since those are who I rub shoulders with.
That plant that put on a new wing for cutting glass. I wonder how long it would have taken to get permits to even start building here? Time is money in business. Regardless of labor costs, just getting started and done has value.
Wes
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On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 16:15:56 -0500, Wes

But if it's done in the US, not enough value to justify the comparative cost.
Don't forget one big advantage the Chinese have. Without having to worry about environmental or health permits, and with complete control over the media and public protests, you can just sweep dead or disabled workers under the rug.
Globalization opens up all kinds of opportunities.
--
Ed Huntress

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Yes it does. While I'm not a big fan of over regulating things because I want people in this country to have a decent place to work and live in, at some point we need to look at how 'free trade' is conducted. If we want clean air and water, but our regulations export the work to China or some other country, do we allow importation of products using dirty methods to just flow in freely without some sort of tariff to negate the bottom feeding?
We can also use the same framework on how workers are treated. I don't have a problem competing with Germany, Finland, England or any of the nations that have a similar economic, worker protection and environmental framework in place.
Wes
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On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:12:51 -0500, Wes

I think those sentiments are shared by most of us. You know I studied trade enough to write some lengthy articles about it, and I'm still on mailing lists from the policy institutes that study it. I expect I'll be writing about it again some time soon.
But I have no answers. All I know is that it is much more complex, and a much more difficult problem, than most people realize. We are NOT in a position to do much about it unilaterally. We're the ones who started this whole thing, at least in modern times. Now we're reaping the results.
It concerns me but there are historical reasons to believe that it will settle itself. Like the weather, it's going to happen. There isn't a lot we can do to shape it. But we can be a lot smarter about responding to it.
--
Ed Huntress

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On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 17:12:51 -0500, Wes

< Much Snipped >

What you don't realize that regardless of what you think the workers you are referring to believe that they are being treated well and that they have bettered their lives by getting a job in the factory.
In fact, nearly all of them come from an agricultural background and are pretty damned sure that they have found a better life then back on the farm (I seem to remember something similar happening in the U.S. some years ago. In fact wasn't there a song written about it?)
In 1928 Hoover campaigned for president on the slogan "A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage" but it is doubtful if anyone can get elected in today's United States on a pittance like that and I really wonder whether things have reached a point that the U.S. economy can no longer support the luxurious life style that seems to have become the norm.
-- John B.
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Actually I do realize that this is a step up for them. Of course these factories keep moving further inland because the peasants are wanting higher wages.

I don't remember what the song was. A whole lot of people moved north in days past from the agrarian south to cities like Detroit to make high wages. That worked for a while but now many of them are trapped in inner cites with no hope.
I wonder if history will do a repeat?
Wes
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On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 18:07:55 -0500, Wes

See http://www.library.jhu.edu/collections/specialcollections/sheetmusic/musictours/singingwar/farm.html
The move to Detroit was, if I remember correctly, to take advantage of very much higher wages paid in the factories there as apposed to be a sharecropper in the South. The situation in many parts of Asia are the same. Take a job at the new factory for a salary or stay at home and get practically nothing for harder work.
But it wasn't the workers who caused the exodus out of Detroit, it was the unions and the manufacturers who caused that move. The workers were very much the victims.
As for history, it does tend to repeat itself.
-- John B.
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wrote:

I've recently been reading a book, "A colossal failure of common sense", written by a guy who was a bond trader at Lehman Bros. He mentions in the book that their Cheaf of Analysis forecast the failure of G.M. a year before it happened. Her analysis was that their main problem was the tremendous value of the accrued pensions that they were obligated for.
-- John B.
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What's missing from this analysis is the arrival of the Japanese.
American cars had become a very bad deal. While the monopoly endured, it didn't matter. Japanese cars showed people just how badly they were being abused.
Joe Gwinn
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Yes, the Japanese did get their foot hold in with lower prices but what are they selling now? Think Tundra, Lexis, Accura, Prius, ect.
My uncle would dearly love to buy another Toyota mini truck again but those are not sold here anymore.
Szumi -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

    Neat. Now all Ford has to do is put the last fifty years of technical improvements in side, and I'd say they probably would have a big seller.
tschus pyotr
--
pyotr
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typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

    For such short runs? Of course. With inflation, the 1964 Mustang would run you around $18 Gs today. So, ramp up production, get the economies of scale and sell them for 20 -25 K, make a fortune.
tschus pyotr
--
pyotr
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snipped-for-privacy@mindspring.com says...

>>>>http://www.library.jhu.edu/collections/specialcollections/sheetmusic/musictours/singingwar/farm.html
So what would this 2012 production-legal Mustang look like?
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typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

    Yeah, just like that.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
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On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:24:12 -0800, pyotr filipivich

These aren't meant for "Volume Production" per se - there are a lot of those old Ponycars on the road that have been fixed and restored and fixed again - with the Unibody all rotted out from road salt, one of the first really popular Unibody cars.
All those body-shell stampings have been available as individual repair parts for years, but you need a body shop to tear the car apart in and weld in the repairs and the results can be highly variable... They've never sold the bodies already jigged up straight and true and welded together as a complete assembly - and with a primer dip too.
Now you can order the replacement body-shell, finish the prep, do the Paint, rebuild and transfer over the powertrain and interior from your old Mustang, and have a "New" old car.
(Well, for another 15 - 20 years, then you'll have to do it again...)
There's one wrinkle that they have to address - you can certainly just do it and keep your mouth shut, but I wonder if it's really legal to transfer over the VIN Number tags, section in the body rail parts that have the "Hidden" stamped VIN, and make it your "old" car in the fresh body shell.
I could see a system where you order the "new" body with your old VIN already stamped in (because they keep control the special die stamps for those numbers) and the closest Dealer transfers over and rivets in the VIN plate when you're done because they control the special security-head rivets.
And AIUI wrecking yards aren't supposed to accept the old body shell without the VIN on it for destruction and melt-down. They need to invent some new paperwork for the purpose, or chop it up first.
Would have to be addressed on a per-state basis unless the Feds come up with a rule that covers everyone.
It's the "Grandpa's Axe" conundrum - We've changed the handle a dozen times, and the head wore out twice, but it's still "Grandpa's Axe."
--<< Bruce >>--
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snipped-for-privacy@mindspring.com says...

Figured that was the answer I'd get. The 1965 did not have to comply with 2012 impact regulations or bumper regulations or headlight regulations or emission regulations or fuel economy regulations or any of the numerous other regulations that have been implemented in the intervening nearly half a century. So, after you've made it comply with all the regulations so it can be sold in interstate commerce in the United States, what will it look like?
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