Diet Soda BS

ham Study data to find some associations between known risk factors and inc idences of stroke and dementia.

The Framingham Study data is the world's largest database of risk factors and their correlations with disease. I referred to it extensively when writ ing about metabolic syndrome. So does practically everyone else who works i n the field or who reports on it.

N news article?

the risk-factor correlation. Then they applied straightforward statistical methods to see what the data tell us.

if you don't know how these associations are researched and measured in med icine, find out before jumping to conclusions.

1998?2001). We

They start out trying to track down and measure KNOWN RISK FACTORS. This is risk analysis -- a very sophisticated branch of statistics. They're trying to measure the relationship between factors for which they already have an ecdotal evidence.

It's exactly like observing events, forming a hypothesis, and then testing it -- trying to disprove (or prove) it. But in this case, all they can show from the data is an ASSOCIATION, adjusting for other known risk factors. G iven the association, the next step is to study the correlation, looking fo r a hypothesis involving causation -- maybe. Sometimes they never find caus ation.

Nonsense. You either didn't read, or didn't understand, the statistical res ults that Iggy picked up right away. They corrected for other known risk fa ctors, using the huge database available from the Framingham Studies.

It's your logic that's poor, and you're the one who is starting off with so mething you want to prove. But you're doing a lousy job of proving it.

No it doesn't. This is how much of medical research is done. This is how th ey found out that smoking shortens lives. It's how they learned that a diet high in saturated fat leads to increased incidence of heart disease.

That's medical research, Martin.

Of course not. They weren't "testing." They were analyzing existing data. T he data is neutral and it was acquired before anyone thought to run this pa rticular analysis. Thus, there was no need for blind testing. The data acqu isition was done with no possibility of research bias.

Read the whole study and you'll see that (a), they corrected for other risk factors, and (b) they didn't attempt to determine the mechanism of action (as medical researchers would put it) or the "cause," as you put it.

To this day, they don't know the mechanism of action for many drugs, includ ing some antibiotics and cancer treatments that have saved thousands of liv es. That's medicine. They're looking for results, not necessarily for the p atterns of mediation and causation.

Reply to
edhuntress2
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Bullshit. You don't know how to read an abstract.

Reply to
Rudy Canoza

Where are these "important ones," and why can't they speak for themselves?

Reply to
Suburban War

There's nothing to prove. "He" will keep posting, and you will keep woofing. If you know that "he" is John Carroll, then why aren't you keeping your recent promise?

"Now the moment his ID is discovered...all bets are off. The fingers between a steel pipe and a 16 oz ball pien would simpy be an early appatizer, with many hours to go.

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In some otherwise similar situation one might say that you're good at talking and useless at acting. But you aren't even any good at talking. Nobody believes you.

Reply to
Suburban War

11 years ago, while posting under this current nym, Rudy Canoza, we had a discussion about a revised marketing claim concerning grass-fed beef from USDA. You claimed that you had written to and received a reply from William T. Sessions, Associate Deputy Administrator, Livestock and Seed Program. Here below is the post you wrote using the nym Rudy Canoza containing your correspondence with William Sessions. [start- Jon to me] Eat shit and bark at the moon, Dreck - the proposed standard has NOT been adopted. I wrote to William Sessions, the associate deputy administrator (how's that for a title) at the Livestock and Seed Program at USDA that is in charge of writing the standard for the "meat marketing claims"; his name, title and e-mail address are at a web page whose URL I gave yesterday,
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Here's his reply:

From: "Sessions, William" To: Mr. Ball: Thanks for your message. The marketing claim standards are still under review by USDA. Accordingly, the standards have not been published in a final form for use. I hope this information is helpful. Please let me know if further information is needed. Thanks, William T. Sessions Associate Deputy Administrator Livestock and Seed Program

-----Original Message----- From: jonball@[...] Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:38 AM To: Sessions, William Subject: 2003 proposed standards for meat marketing claims

I have read about the proposed standards, and I've seen many of the public comments sent to USDA. I cannot find anything to indicate if the standards were adopted. Were the standards as proposed in 2003 adopted?

Thanks in advance. Jonathan Ball Pasadena, CA ___________________________________________________ Jonathan Ball aka Rudy Canoza 08 Sep 2005

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Jonathan Ball. Pasadena, CA. Priceless! That email, posted from Jonathan Ball, you, and the return email sent to Jonathan Ball proves beyond all doubt that you are Jonathan Ball. Of course, you don't live in Pasadena since moving to

5327 Shepard Ave Sacramento, CA 95819-1731

Here's the proof Jonathan D Ball

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Yeah you will. You're an old man who hasn't looked after himself. I wouldn't go around goading people if I was as small and as puny as you are, liar Jon. You ought to be very careful.

Are you really serious, weed? you're just over 5 feet tall and 64 years old. You'll be 65 on December 2nd. You've got to stop threatening people and goading them to come after you. You're pathetic.

Reply to
Schuman

Two *more* very good questions.

Reply to
shit gummer

It's not that impressive, though. The wide confidence intervals, which com e close to including 1.0, mean that the statistical significance is borderl ine. Add a bit of Bonferroni correction, and it'll disappear. And Bonferr oni correction is appropriate here, since they investigated at least two hy potheses (sugar-sweetened and artificially sweetened). Did they use such a correction? Well, searching the article for "Bonferroni" comes up empty, as does "correction", but possibly they used it under another name. It wou ldn't be unusual if they omitted it, though.

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And I'm sure they explain what they really mean somewhere, but it is rather odd to find any dietary factor significant after adjusting for "diet quali ty".

My beef with artificially sweetened soft drinks is that they fool the body: when taste buds register sweetness, the body reacts by increasing blood su gar in anticipation of its carbohydrate storage being replenished by the in coming food. When no carbohydrate is really incoming, this leaves the body 's storage more drawn-down than it should be. So I wouldn't have a problem with there being a real effect here, even if this study can't pick it out of the statistical noise.

Reply to
Norman Yarvin

With 7 names, making your daily post count 50. We plonk them but when you reply to them, we see every post because -you- aren't filtered in our readers like they are.

They come back over and over because you reply to them. Ignore them and they'll fade back under the rock they came from. And complain to Gmail about the harassment. Every time. (there instead of here, please)

BTDT, got the t-shirt, mon. I continue to plonk new names daily.

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Hahahaha!

Here, I'll write the complaint for him:

Dear Gmail,

I have repeatedly threatened to kill thousands of people. Some of them took offense and now they ridicule me mercilessly. I've been reminding them for years that I'll kill them any day now, but it isn't working. Please help.

Sincerely,

Mark R Wieber aka Gunner Asch

PS So that you know I'm a serious guy, here is a pretty good list of my accomplishments.

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Reply to
Reflektor

They seemingly didn't adjust for BMI, which is known to correlate with stroke, and it stands to reason that people with higher BMI would drink more artificial sweeteners. So, I also didn't like this study, just like our wild-eyed friends up the thread, but perhaps I can claim slightly more reasonable reasons.

Reply to
Przemek Klosowski

Read the full study. It's in there.

When I was working in the medical editing field, BMI was losing favor as a measure of potential metabolic problems. It appears that intra-abdominal ad iposity, rather than general body-mass index, is the real culprit. IIRC, th e same was true with cardiovascular problems.

Reply to
edhuntress2

???? What's that, the beer belly index?

Paul K. Dickman

Reply to
Paul K. Dickman

Ha-HA! That's not far from the mark. Here's a brief explanation from the in troduction to one of the study papers that address it. FWIW, when I was wri ting about the subject, I spent about six months studying what is known abo ut it. It's a real head-scratcher, because there is (or was) little underst anding of *why* is relates so much more closely to cardiovascular and metab olic risks than BMI does:

"Preferential fat deposition in the abdomen?between and within viscera and retroperitoneally?has been linked with cardiometabolic risk.7 Measuring the waist girth (or its ratio to the hip circumference) has become a recommended adjunct to clinical examination, and much evidence supports a large waist as a disease risk indicator independent of total adiposity [as the body mass index (BMI)]." ["Intra-abdominal adiposity, abdominal obesity, and cardiometabolic risk" --

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I could give a detailed rundown, but it would put everyone to sleep. d8-)

The point is, that fat that lies *between* organs in the belly area is trou ble, much more so than other deposits of fat.

Reply to
edhuntress2

ANOTHER easy address of "mine" that's easy to look up AND close by! So why are you still sitting there instead of heading out with your hammer and pipe? Same reason you're not digging a new leach pit: you're just a lazy old gasbag who richly deserves your derelict lifestyle and overflowing toilets.

Reply to
Reflektor

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