Interlock locks to be used in lieu of transfer switch

I think a lot of AHJ could have some fun with, "...prevent the inadvertant interconnection...in any operation of the transfer equipment."

One could take the position that "any operation" could include using two keys simultaneously. And that's the crux of the whole argument. A real transfer switch can't be put into two different positions at the same time.

Sort of like NEMA reversable motor controllers. Not only is there an electrical interlock to prevent both contactors being picked up at the same time, there is a mechanical bar that will not let one side pull in if the other side is somehow jammed in.

While keylocks are familiar to many of us, and certainly the AHJ, they may seem foreign to some homeowners. Someone's wife, who called the neighbor in the middle of the night, may decide that in order to turn that second lock, she needs to go get the key from the safe. No problem, she trots upstairs with a torch, gets the second key and hands it over to the 'helpful neighbor'. Who promptly 'interconnects' the normal and alternative sources of supply. Inadvertantly.

"Qualified" personnel understand that the key-lock is meant to ensure only one lock can be operated at a time. But someone 'unqualified' may just assume the other key is kept in a 'safe place' and just needs to go retrieve it. OOPS.

A simple slide-bar or other mechanical interlock is more 'foolproof' then keylocks. Keylocks are more for when the two switches/breakers are too far apart for a simple mechanical interlock.

daestrom

Reply to
daestrom
Loading thread data ...

It boggles my mind that people will put so much effort into justifying their schemes to bypass the need for a proper transfer switch. It's not that difficult - if you're sure your system is safe, call the people who do electrical inspections in your area and ask. If they say "no", then are you really stupid enough to do it anyway? Knowing that an unapproved electrical installation is going to cause hell with your insurance if you ever have a problem... If they say yes, get it in writing, do it, and don't bother Usenet with the details.

Reply to
Derek Broughton

I have, and it is bullshit, to use trained linemen as an excuse.

You profess to have so much vast knowledge of electrical systems and utilities. Ask them yourself.

Utilty workers have the lowest compensation rates of any profession. there is a reason for that. Oh yeah, I forgot the US is about 30 years behind in safety measures according to the trainers training in most states. This may not apply there.

formatting link

formatting link

Reply to
Solar Flaire

Good point.

If the inspector ever sees it :\.

Do you really believe all those folks buying wireing & boxes & outlets & switches at Home Despot on Saturday afternoons all have building permits & are going to hand the stuff over to a liscensed electrician to do the work??

Lets just AssUMe everybody smart enough the be on Usenet can do house wiring to acceptable standards :).

True, but "qualified" is a loaded term- I'm sure we all know of presumably "qualified" electricians who shouldn't be allowed to plug a wallwart into a wall recepticle. My experience is that utility inspecters will pass something if it's "right", even if it isn't done by the "right" person.

Have a look here for some examples of transer setups approved by "qualified" electricians-

formatting link

Most usually at socialy awkward times :(.

H.

Reply to
Howard Eisenhauer

Yes, two keys *could* be a problem, but I've never encountered an installation where two keys were available. Kirk seems to make it damned hard to actually get a spare key. The fact is keyed interlocks are in use & therefore presumably acceptable by some, if not all, authorities.

As for a "real" transfer switch not being able to be put into two positions at the same time-don't believe it. I've seen lots that with a little messing around, or even failure of a simple spring clip, can most certainly be in two positions at the same time. Caveot Emptor.

If you have two keys, nail the spare to the wall. Or get rid of it . Placard the breakers against using two keys at once. Tattoo operating instructions to the wifes forehead. In reverse. So she can read them by looking in a mirror.

The installations I've worked with certainly had lottsa little lamiplax signs all over the place with operating instructions, warnings, contact info- in short everything but next week's winning lotto numbers :(. If the people can read & they read the sign, well then I'd say they're qualified.

Agreed, but I was under the impression that was Igor's problem, the physical layout of the existing panels ruled out the use of a single box transfer switch.

H.

Reply to
Howard Eisenhauer

According to Howard Eisenhauer :

Not quite.

Some background:

The legislative framework (eg: "The Ontario Electrical Power Act" (or something like that)) in Canada says that following the CEC is mandatory (subject to fines or imprisonment), and secondly that all utility-powered devices (up to the "last" enclosure that receives line voltage, and some downstream[+]) must be approved in accordance with the CEC's requirements before they can be sold, and that for the most part custom alterations void approvals.

Then, the CEC enumerates _who_ gets to approve things. General electrical devices always have to be type approved by the CSA (and/or UL/ULC now), _or_ unit-approval by the electrical utility, or by certain accredited labs (eg: Warnock Hersey). Beyond that point, it also says that certain classes of devices that include other regulated things (eg: gas, emergency fire equipment etc) must _also_ be approved by certain other agencies.

In general, then, a transfer switch must always be approved by one of the "electrical inspection" agencies they enumerate, and further a "emergency fire pump" must also be approved by the agency relevant to that - I don't have my book handy, so I can't say for sure what that is. NFPA equivalent.

Are these manufactured devices? Eg: is the bar assembly manufactured (and presumably approved) or, is this cobbled together by an electrician?

Secondly, residential versus other?

There are some blanket differences between single occupant residential and everything else. One of the more important things is that, except for single occupant residential, DIY is essentially forbidden - a licensed electrician is always required. And secondly, because of the blanket requirements for CSA/UL etc approvals for the purpose within the type of installation involved (eg: access etc) something acceptable, say, in an industrial situation wouldn't be in residential.

You certainly have a point there. In Canada from a _code_ perspective (rather than an inspector's personal druthers) it'd boil down to whether such a device was permissible in a residential system, eg: whether requirements for such things as "access to authorized [read: licensed in some cases] personnel only" would override. There are many things permissible in industrial/commercial that aren't in residential.

[+] Wallwarts largely exist to "stop" the noses of CSA/UL at a wallwart, and not to the low voltage connected devices.
Reply to
Chris Lewis

I don't know where you are located but check out this item available in south Florida.

formatting link

The Oneplug is essentially an isolator/ transfer switch that takes your home off the grid when your generator powers up, it is installed by the power company, and doesn't have to be tied into your wiring inside the house.

We sell industrial generators and transfer switches, but I like the concept of this item so much, I'm recommending it to my customers as an alternative.

Good luck,

Ed

Reply to
toolguy

Wow. I'd be really interested in one of these, but I'm not an FPL customer and that price seems a bit high. Seems that you could do a traditional transfer switch and a couple of hours of professional labor for quite a bit less than that.

-- "Tell me what I should do, Annie." "Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

Reply to
Rick Blaine

How long have you been the Mayor?

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

I know they don't. I'm not a licensed electrician. Personal story below.

Where I used to live if you went to the county court house and asked about a permit they would have told you that you'd have to go to the next county to get your driver's permit. I now live in an area where you have to have a permit before you can even think about what you might build five years from now. With that said, after jumping through many hoops, paying more money than I make in 6 months and filling almost one complete drawer in my filing cabinet with the necessary paperwork I started to work. I called and told them I was ready for the county inspector to come out and see if things were up to standards. He drove up, we talked about military service, his days flying an old PBYand told me that ever thing looked fine and signed. He never got of his truck.

To be honest with you if the codes are written clearly you don't need much over a 60 IQ to wire a house. Code tells you what size wire from point A to point B, how many outlets and/or lights allowed per circuit, max distance between outlets, where GFI's are required. The problems start when you have a strong electrictions union around.

A lot of them will pass stuff if its done wrong but done by the "right" person, usually a "licensed" . Let some "idiot home owner" install things OVER CODE (i.e. using 10 ga wire when code only requires 12) and see what happens.

Reply to
no spam

You should try building a TV station in a city with no heavy industry, if you want to meet idiot inspectors.

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

At least, not on a monday morning or a friday afternoon!

And just about as often they will pass something done by the "right" person, if, at a glance, nothing looks egregiously wrong.

At least the owner's made the claim they were approved. I guess maybe my opinion of professionals still has room to fall. :)

sdb

Reply to
sylvan butler

Reply to
Solar Flaire

Sounds to me like a $2K Kirk interlock system in order to replace a $200 transfer switch.

One other point. Many of the Home Depot transfer switches will never pass code in Canada. Home Depot has them hidden from the shelves in an attempt to cover up their lack of code knowledge.

"Howard Eisenhauer" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Reply to
Solar Flaire

No. I've never used it, but I could probably find some for you if you're thirsty, Mayor.

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

So, are you telling us that Home Depot can't find anyone in Canada that knows what they are doing?

Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Protecting peoples lives is not nonsense!

I am amazed at how many truly ignorant people are advising that some variety of interlock is OK for a transfer switch. It is not only dangerous but illegal in both Canada and the US.

The emphasis is on Ignorant.

Reply to
sparky

There are certainly legal, listed breaker interlock systems that are legal in the US. Look in a Square D or Siemens catalog. I can't speak for canada but I bet these are CSA listed too.

Reply to
gfretwell

formatting link

Reply to
gfretwell

No thanks, I have enough around me.

Reply to
no spam

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.