Moving machines



So, Bill, is it a 1000 lbs or a ton?

That was a scary moment.

There is no easy answer, but, 1,000 lbs is not that much either. So a clarification is in order, what is the weight of the lathe.
i
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Ignoramus22384 wrote:

I had the front end of a tilt bed tow truck 3'+ off the ground when unloading a large generator. The look on the driver's face was priceless. We gently removed the load from the back with a pair of big jacks and lowered the front of the truck back to the ground.

Nope, 1,000# is pretty manageable. When it gets over 2,000# then you start to tax "normal" home shop rigging supplies.
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Try watching this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v6LrRewRXbU


Yep, I consider 1,000 lbs to be a more or less a DIY job
i
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Pete, Iggie,

That's just the kind of thing I am hoping to learn. Some questions are:
What are the best options for DIYing a 1000 lb lathe into and out of a pickup? Is it reasonable to do w/o a trailer? I might have to ask some follow up questions because my driveway isn't the friendliest.
How sharp is the 2000 lb cutoff? Would you rig a mill at that weight, or seek help? I am asking because I might decide to alter my shopping list. My position has been to insist on a 12" cross travel, but there are 8x36 mills that weigh under 1700 lb - I like that, especially if I were to remove a component or two. Enco does not sell them, but there are mills that at least are advertised as weighing 2000 lb and having a 12 inch cross travel. If a 2000 lb machine is greatly more manageable to a hobbyist than would be even a 2400 lb machine, I want to know that, likewise if 2000 lb is just a bit too much for DIY.
To those who would suggest a benchtop knee to me, I counter by observing that cross travel is smaller than I have on my mill-drill. I would have to think carefully before taking that hit. An 8x36 with a 9"+ cross travel might be worth a look, especially if I can reasonably expect to be able to rig it myself. If I move a long distance, then selling/re-buying or trucking are the obvious options. But I have always slightly cheated the costs of local moves with some elbow grease. If I give up that option with machines, I want to understand it up front. Also, I can't help but think that a machine might be better off being broken down and moved in pieces by its owner vs. being moved by people who might not have our respect for iron.
Does that help?
Bill
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Shipping terminal is best for getting it into pickup.
Getting out would be done with a "shop crane", especially if you try to take off all removable parts.
I would not try to unload a 2,000 lbs anything. I paid someone to deliver my Bridgeport and I am very happy with that decision.

I would seek help.
i
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Ignoramus27804 wrote:

A chain hoist properly fastened to the garage ceiling would make unloading easy. A couple of tempory vertical columns on each side of the ceiling attach point would hold 1000 lbs.
John
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john wrote:

A very risky thing to do since "Properly fastened" and properly supported can be complex. Basically the hoist needs an independent support structure to carry the load and not rely on the building structure for anything but lateral support. Spending the $500 or so on Harbor Freights small gantry is a much better idea and the repair cost when you collapse the garage ceiling and the roof or room above it will be a lot more than $500.
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"Pete C." wrote:

That is exactly what I was saying with a properly fastened hoist.
Spending the $500 or so on

Gantry cranes can be very dangerous if you are not familiar with using them. If you are moving a load and you hit a small bump it is very possible that the gantry will be pulled over by the swinging weight caused by the sudden stoppage of the gantry.
I will correct what I said...... If you have no experience in moving heavy loads don't attempt it..... get a company with a rollback to move it for you. It will probably cost you a lot less than a rigger.
John
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wrote:

You are making some Really Huge Assumptions without knowing a single thing about the structure you suggest be used as a lifting point. And it's rash assumptions like that which get people hurt or killed, when the building comes down on them.
But that's okay, we know you wouldn't dare try it yourself. But it's real easy to make a Usenet posing for some other schlub to do it at his house. ;-)
It might be doable IF there's a suitable heavy wood structural beam (Say a 6"x16" supporting a set-back 2nd floor room) already right where you need it...
and IF you can rig a suitable pick point fitting to spread the load evenly from a lifting eye onto the beam...
and IF you can place lally columns to get that extra load down to the floor with as short a span as possible...
and IF you can provide enough cribbing to spread the load out on the garage floor slab - remember, there's no footings and if the sub-soil wasn't compacted right or is water saturated a heavily loaded column foot could punch right through.
Concrete doesn't carry tension loads worth beans, and they don't require much steel in a garage slab - might have one sheet of 1/8" x 6" x 6" welded wire if you're lucky, and that's nothing.
Before I tried a trick like that, I'd invite my friend the Architect and his wife the Civil Engineer over to take a look (I'd probably end up buying dinner...) and make sure I was on the right track and not overlooking something obvious. And potentially deadly.
--<< Bruce >>--
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I lifted a 2,200 lbs Bridgeport off my garage ceiling using a chain hoist.
The load was spread across about 5 6x2's using a "crossbeam" made of a 6x6.
The lifting point was about 5 feet away from one of the walls.
This is not something that I would recommend, ie I will not come help scraping your remains off the floor if you do the same thing and your mill falls on you.
i
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On Oct 15, 10:40 am, Ignoramus31535 <ignoramus31...@NOSPAM. 31535.invalid> wrote:

Would you do the lift the same way today? Was there any indication, while lifting, that you were being unsafe (i.e. Any sagging of the rafters or ANY nasty creaking or snapping sounds). If none of the above, and you protected the rafters against being damaged by your chain, then I'd say "You got it right."
dennis in nca
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Yes.
None that I recall.

The chain did not touch the rafters. The way it worked is that above the ceiling, a 6x6 was thrown perpendiculat to the rafters. The chain hoist was below the ceiling and attached to rafters by means of 1/2" threaded rod.
http://igor.chudov.com/projects/ChainHoist/
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"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

I did not make any rash assumptions, I said a properly fastened hoist with vertical columns would support a 1000 pound load.

Now you are making assumptions. I move heavy parts every day with weights up to over two tons. I have lifted many heavy machines with temporary setups and never dropped any of them.

Its only 1000 lb. not five ton.

the house and if a fault line had opened a fissure under the concrete and if it has rained for the past 40 days and the whole house is about to slide down the hill and if......
a heavily loaded column,,, 1000 lbs on two columns... that puts 500 lb. on each post. If the post is only four square inches in section, that would be about 125 lbs per sq inch hardly enough to punch through the concrete even without using a bottom plate.

I though it was a garage... cars weigh a lot more than 1000 lbs.

Id make sure he or she has had a PE for at least 20 years, just to be real safe, in fact come to think of it the machinery itself is not safe to run so I would forget the whole idea.
John
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    Well ... I carried both an 800 pound 12x24" Clausing lathe with bed turret, and later an 1100 pound Nichols horizontal mill up the driveway to my garage^H^H^H^H^H^Hshop with a 3/4 ton pickup. The lathe was moved directly from the side of the high flatbed to the pickup (which was backed down the driveway to the side of the truck) with the help of a ramp made of five 10' lengths of 2x4 bolted edge up to deck planking with lag screws. The lathe was slid down this ramp into the bed of the pickup, and then tied down to the corner anchors of the pickup's bed. The ramp was on top of the edge of the tailgate to provide something closer to a horizontal surface while the pickup was on the rather steep driveway. (Oh yes -- the pickup was 4WD and thus rather tall anyway.)
    Once the pickup was outside the driveway and parked, the end of the ramp was lifted by hand (two people) and the tailgate was lowered -- below the horizontal point by disconnecting the support arms. Then the lathe and ramp were moved out over the tailgate until we reached a point where the ramp could be tilted to provide an angled surface down to the garage floor. Mountain climbing rope went from a carabiner at one corner of the bed, around the front of the lathe, to another carabiner with several turns, and then to my wife to "tail" (feed it gently -- the several turns made it easy for her to control the weight via friction.
    We slid it down the ramp, and onto the garage floor, eventually fully inside. At this point, the ramp was jacked up clear of the tailgate (using a floor jack) and the pickup was driven clear. A bit of cribbing allowed the gentle lowering and removal of the ramp.
    Later, a borrowed engine hoist lifted it clear of the pallet on which it was mounted, and it ws transferred directly to the floor.
    The milling machine was more top-heavy, and was also crushing the pallet, so the moving company had put another under it. The driver knew where a fork lift was available which could be used to transfer it to the pickup (and on top of the same ramp). The pallet disintegrating was a bit of a problem. We drove some 4x4s into the bottom pallet to keep it from being crushed as well, then worked at removing the parts of the top pallet. Once that was done, we were able to put a similar arrangement of mountain climbing rope and carabiners to support the top end of the milling machine as it slid down the ramp -- assisted by a come-along anchored deeper into the garage. Final removal was again with a lot of cribbing removed one 2x4 at a time from each side. The engine hoist was not available at the time. I now have my own. All told, the hardest work was levering up one side at a time to remove the parts of the top pallet so we could have a flat surface under the 1100 pounds.

    I'm not sure about a 2000 pound mill, but a 3500 pound one (my first heavy tool) involved renting a forklift to remove it from the truck and get it up the driveway. Once it was indoors (placed by the fork lift) the remainder of moving it involved Johnson bars and pipe rollers. For this, I had three friends, one of whom was experienced in moving heavy machines.
    And -- as always -- if something is starting to topple, *don't* try to stop it, and warn all of your helpers to just get clear too. Trying to stop it can lead to too much damage to people, instead of to replaceable machines.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
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DoN,
> The lathe

So you have what amounts to a 4WD F-250?? Sorry for any offense re brand loyalty :) In my case, I am fairly neutral, though very impressed with the F-150 the fell out of my search for "older but worth having".
The ramp went from the truck to your vertical tailgate, and then the lathe slid into the bed. Did the ramp pivot as the weight crossed the gate? Any concerns about that much weight resting largely on the gate, or am I missing how it worked?

That approach would allow me to back up to my garage and place the load on its level floor. I am skeptical of achieving that with my hoist because of the garage door, but will measure to see if it has a chance; it would be great if the distances add up. Failing that, the "hoist and drive out from under it" idea would put it near the garage on the driveway. The slope there isn't much, and some leverage and sliding should get it the rest of the way. There is small step up from driveway to garage floor; something I never noticed until I had to get a 700 lb mill to climb it on an engine hoist.
You mentioned anchoring a come-along deeper in your garage. Any recommendations for doing that w/o (much anyway) damage to the house?

[snip]
The smallest mill I am considering right now weighs 1650 lb, which by my understanding is a trailer job. For the initial arrival, I would probably attack it by a receive and redeliver trick, if only to avoid surprises that might waste a driver's time. For a local move, I am curious about breaking it down and moving the pieces. I am in no hurry to move, but it might be nice to be able to ease the financial pain and perhaps take better care of the machines by relocating them myself.

How did that cost compare to hiring a rigger?

Good advice.
Thanks!
Bill
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    Well ... I don't know the F-250, so I can't compare them. What I have is a Mazda B2600i (big 4 cylinder engine). This was made just before the "partnership" with Ford, and the engine has a real timing chain (visible through the oil port) instead of a timing belt.

    O.K.
    No -- the other end of the ramp was near the cab end of the bed. I slowly backed my truck towards the delivery truck until the foot of the ramp was against the back of the bed, so it would not slide while the lathe was on it.

    The ramp was above the gate when the lathe passed over it. Once the lathe was as far towards the cab as the pallet would allow (heavy headstock end towards the cab), I checked the force needed to lift the far (delivery truck) end of the ramp, and felt comfortable letting that rest on the upright tailgate. I put a jack under the ramp right by the tailgate (inside the bed) and jacked it up just enough to clear the delivery truck so I could drive forward a little and let it gently down onto the tailgate. Once at the garage, I tried lifting the end again, and felt comfortable letting the tailgate down and by hand lowering the ramp until it was flat on the bed.
    [ ... ]

    I didn't have an engine hoist until the next day, when I could drive the pickup to pick it up. :-)

    Well ... you probably don't have what I used. I already had a 3500 pound CNC Bridgeport about as far into the garage as I could get it, and a 2" web strap around the base of the Bridgeport offered a place to hook the come-along. :-)
BTW    I also used that same web strap (which was sewn into a circle     with a pair of hook plates on it -- Army surplus) when lifting     the lathe with the engine hoist. There, the ends of the loop     went under the (rather stiff) chip tray at both ends coming out     past the front and back edges, and I shifted the hook plates     closer to the headstock end for balance, and tied around the web     straps to keep it from sliding towards the lighter end.
    The real trick was getting the engine hoist close enough without the legs interfering with the pallet. I had to approach from the headstock end, unbolt the lathe from the pallet, lift the lathe clear, slide the pallet out, and then rotate the lathe so it was at right angles to the beam and legs of the hoist and lower it onto cribbing to let the legs be rolled out from under it. Then, it was the floor jack and removing cribbing from one end, then the other back and forth until it was on the floor.
    As for the come-along and the milling machine below -- there was a T-shaped pit (with curbs to keep from driving into the T-bar or the pit) at the far end. I put a length of aluminum I-beam across the T-bar and pulled it against that, which gave me a good pull into the garage with no chance of damaging the poured concrete pit. Again, something which is not present in most home garages. :-)

    You'll probably need the engine host to break down the mill. Is it a vertical or horizontal spindle mill? In any case, you will probably want someone with some experience in taking things like that apart -- especially if you remove the knee after removing the table and saddle. The Bridgeports have tapered gibs, and if you lower the knee with the wrong things loose, you will wedge the gibs firmly in place, making it quite difficult to get apart without damage to the machine. (No -- I haven't done this.) The only thing removed from my Bridgeport when I brought it in was the 2JP three-phase motor. All the cabinets full of heavy three-phase transformers and saturable reactors were still installed. (CNC of that vintage adds a *lot* of weight to the machine. :-)     

    I didn't know about hiring riggers then. I think that the fork lift rental (including delivery and eventual pick-up) was something like $600.00. But this was over ten years ago, so my memory is probably rather poor at this point.

    Always remember to warn everybody when you start, and several times more during the operation.
    Good Luck,         DoN.
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DoN,

My 1990 Sentra has a chain, which is new as of a couple of years ago, along with the gears, guides, chain and water pump - that scream you heard around that time was me seeing the estimate ;)

Got it.

[snip]
Got it.

First the chicken and egg, and now this :)

That can be a problem.
> I had to approach from the

Was the lathe too big to lower between the legs when aligned with the boom? I've wondered about that, but cribbing would fix it.

I suspect I will buy vertical.
> In any case, you will

Thanks for the cautions. It is something that I would want to understand how to do, but I do not want to hinge the arrival on it. The 1650 lb 8x36 mill is sounding a little better than it originally did, but there is no rush at the moment.
Thanks,
Bill
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Hello all,
I think I found a good mover. He estimates $500 to receive and re-deliver a mill, and $100 to receive and load a lathe. To move equipment locally, they start talking about minimum times; it's not outrageous, but I am a little perplexed at why they do not do that type of thing on the delivery side. The delivery price does not include removing the machine from the palette, which means they can get in and out quickly - is that the difference?
Bill
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Are you saying your rigger charges way more to remove the machine from the pallet? If so, he may be using his own flatbed tow truck or drop deck trailer (and hand pallet jack) to deliver if you don't want the machine separated from the pallet. Lifting the machine off the pallet would require bringing a forklift.
Regardless, do consider paying extra to get them to remove the pallet. Enco's pallets are big and bulky and, in my opinion, it would be very difficult to separate the machine from the pallet without a forklift.

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